seawolf

If it is outside carrier’s control, AC should either be operating all fights to/from US or none. The moment that only certain flights get removed from schedule but not others illustrates the carrier does indeed have control.

It's not Ottawa telling AC to cancel the morning flight and not the afternoon flight. It's not COVID being more transmittable in the morning but not the evening.

In any case, this is a DoT proceeding, don't know if a US judge is going to look at APPR. They definitely don't look at EC261/2004 claims.

Jagboi

Guidance from the CTA in this context is irrelevant from the DOT's perspective and carries no weight in US law.

nli007

My point wasn't that airlines are fudging the reason of the cancellation, but rather that the CTA (via this determination) has made the definition of "uncontrollable" within the context of COVID-19 cancellation very broad. Decreased DEMAND due to travel advisory to any country (such as the USA), normally could be considered as commercial decision or controllable, would now fall under UNCONTROLLABLE per this determination since the the cancellation (directly due to the decreased demand, but indirectly due to the travel advisory causing the decreased demand) is a de-facto cancellation due to COVID.

Plus given that most airlines have extra parked aircraft, no (Canadian) airline is cancelling due to maintenance these days, but rather due to COVID, staffing, duty hours exceeded, etc.

nli007

My comment about controllable vs uncontrollable has nothing to do with the fiasco Air Canada has found itself in with the DOT as you have correctly pointed out a US judge will probably not care what the APPR says.

But both the CTA and the European Commission would disagree with the standard of an "uncontrollable or extraordinary circumstances" cancellation would dictate a all or nothing approach to flights. Even the EU recognized that de-facto cancellation (due to government restrictions) as a result of COVID would fall under extraordinary circumstances. Air Canada could reduce the flight schedule as a result of COVID restrictions (Say from 3 to 1 a day) bleeding demand and the causation of the cancellation could very well fall under "uncontrollable" or "extraordinary circumstances" per both CTA and EU guidelines.

CTA's proposed approach of refund for uncontrollable cancellations where re-protection cannot be offered within 48 hours is also problematic imo. Most passengers would still have CC Chargeback rights if their flights are cancelled by the airline regardless of the airline's reprotection offers.

strickerj

I see what you mean. It's pretty absurd that CTA defined it that way, but I see many Canadians accusing them of being in the pocket airline industry. I'm not really familiar enough with the politics to make that judgement, but it does seem to fit given what's happened here. (Though I must say, all this kind of surprises me since I thought Canada had more favorable consumer protection laws than the U.S. That a Canadian government agency would consider it reasonable for a company to retroactively change the terms and conditions on a service and not refund for a service that can't be provided is baffling.) Either way, regardless of the CTA "advisory" (not law, but guidance - precisely what AC claims of the DOT's position), the airline has to follow the law in any jurisdiction where it operates.

Of course, all that's moot in my case since the tariff at the time of purchase did allow for refunds on the passenger's request for cancellations for any reason, and for tickets between the U.S. and Canada, the tariff at the time of purchase controls.

stevendorechester

Time to redefine the CTA' s mandate. If I was the PM I would turn the CTA into an enforcement agency and offer the top job to Gabor Lucaks, with uncontestable and absolute authority to order airlines to comply.

seawolf

If AC wins, that could embolden them to not refund for cancellations/delays going forward not just only due to COIVD but other Article 10 conditions unless they choose to do so out of goodwill; conditions such as weather/ATC/labor disruptions etc. So if the flight is IRROPS due to weather, you only get a voucher if you don't want to travel. 3 week strike? Too bad, here's a voucher.

Chargeback rights could also be affected as AC will respond to chargebacks that the the terms of sale clearly indicate non-refundable and here's a judicial ruling backing it up that this is indeed non-refundable unless it is within airline control..

That would also prompt US airlines to revisit their refund polices which currently allow for refunds due to day of departure delays exceeding certain time limits regardless of cause.

It will be ironic if that happens as the Air Passenger Protection Regulations will be enabling just the opposite of what it is named for.

seawolf

Just got an email out of the blue that AC just refunded to me the $1.36 Expedia commission they withheld from my refund last year. I would guess they spent more than $1.36 in labor cost just in flighting this and now processing the refund.

TTC900Rocket

AC took the points I opted for previously, but have yet to update the refund status.

expert7700

Last minute BUMP!

July 12, 23:59 EST deadline is looming. Those who purchased tickets before April 13, 2021 for travel after February 1, 2020 but who didn't fly for any reason (whether because Air Canada cancelled the flights or for any other reason) have until 11:59pm ET on July 12, 2021 to request a refund from Air Canada, otherwise they'll be stuck with a travel voucher rather than a refund to the initial form of payment.
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//last night, orbitz would only give me an internal case # for my refund request on a dead ticket. which instills no hope they will act in time.
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Adam Smith

I'm holding on to my voucher for $323 or whatever it is. I can use that pretty easily and would rather not risk the 10x bonus Aeroplan miles being lost.

nmpls

Anyone actually received a refund lately? I submitted my request on 5/6/2021 and all 3 of my reference numbers say still pending.

lewis_m

I had a request sent 6/10 approved today

nmpls

AC must hate me.

dtman85

lol I sent my request in April and they clawed the points back a week later. I’m still waiting for my refund.