The WestJet 737 MAX 8 thread
Aug 1, 2019, 3:02 pm
#151
Join Date: Jan 2005
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I assume, and hope, that Westjet and Onex are working on a deal to charter or lease some aircraft as a result of the Max grounding and the retirement of one of their old 700s.
I don't know what the Onex leasing situation is like but I would think that now that the deal has been approved they will move some aircrafts around.
I don't know what the Onex leasing situation is like but I would think that now that the deal has been approved they will move some aircrafts around.
That aside, my understanding is that there are few if any aircraft available for lease or charter -- due to the worldwide capacity issues caused by the MAX. Sunwing hopped on it quickly with their Eastern charters (which haven't gone all that well), but I was surprised that AC was able to find any availability at this stage.
Aug 1, 2019, 4:32 pm
#152
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,444
I'm confused ... what role would Onex play in that? (Onex is essentially the group of investment bankers that own WestJet. Unless I've missed something, I don't think that they - as owners - would have any involvement in leasing, or in any of the day-to-day operations of any of the companies that they own.)
That aside, my understanding is that there are few if any aircraft available for lease or charter -- due to the worldwide capacity issues caused by the MAX. Sunwing hopped on it quickly with their Eastern charters (which haven't gone all that well), but I was surprised that AC was able to find any availability at this stage.
That aside, my understanding is that there are few if any aircraft available for lease or charter -- due to the worldwide capacity issues caused by the MAX. Sunwing hopped on it quickly with their Eastern charters (which haven't gone all that well), but I was surprised that AC was able to find any availability at this stage.
Aug 1, 2019, 7:41 pm
#153
Join Date: Jan 2005
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If my understanding of those “leases” (ie from BBAM) is correct, those are long-term financing deals for aircraft. That’s a relatively long term commitment to the plane that’s leased, and really just an alternative to purchasing outright. Leasing a 737 (or whatever) in that manner isn’t a short-term bandaid to solve for peak traffic over a single flying season.
I believe the short-term kind of solutions that airlines are doing now are either “wet leases” or charters — which are both essentially short-term rentals of fully-crewed, certified, licensed aircraft. (That’s what WS used to do for their Alberta to Hawaii flights, before they acquired 767s — and what AC just managed to do, and what Sunwing did with Eastern.)
I don’t think that’s the business that BBAM is in. In automotive terms, BBAM is more like a fleet leasing company that finances a car rather than Avis or Budget renting you a car for a few weeks. If WestJet wants to bump up capacity for just the winter season while they wait for grounded MAXs, I don’t think BBAM can help them.
I believe the short-term kind of solutions that airlines are doing now are either “wet leases” or charters — which are both essentially short-term rentals of fully-crewed, certified, licensed aircraft. (That’s what WS used to do for their Alberta to Hawaii flights, before they acquired 767s — and what AC just managed to do, and what Sunwing did with Eastern.)
I don’t think that’s the business that BBAM is in. In automotive terms, BBAM is more like a fleet leasing company that finances a car rather than Avis or Budget renting you a car for a few weeks. If WestJet wants to bump up capacity for just the winter season while they wait for grounded MAXs, I don’t think BBAM can help them.
Aug 1, 2019, 8:06 pm
#154
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Really good article in today’s Seattle Times ... a great overview of what both Boeing and the FAA are doing now:
Full article here:
https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...ight-controls/
Newly stringent FAA tests spur a fundamental software redesign of Boeing’s 737 MAX flight controls
By Dominic Gates
Seattle Times aerospace reporter
While conducting newly stringent tests on the Boeing 737 MAX flight control system, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in June uncovered a potential flaw that now has spurred Boeing to make a fundamental software-design change.
...
By Dominic Gates
Seattle Times aerospace reporter
While conducting newly stringent tests on the Boeing 737 MAX flight control system, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in June uncovered a potential flaw that now has spurred Boeing to make a fundamental software-design change.
...
https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...ight-controls/
Aug 1, 2019, 11:13 pm
#155
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,444
If my understanding of those “leases” (ie from BBAM) is correct, those are long-term financing deals for aircraft. That’s a relatively long term commitment to the plane that’s leased, and really just an alternative to purchasing outright. Leasing a 737 (or whatever) in that manner isn’t a short-term bandaid to solve for peak traffic over a single flying season.
I believe the short-term kind of solutions that airlines are doing now are either “wet leases” or charters — which are both essentially short-term rentals of fully-crewed, certified, licensed aircraft. (That’s what WS used to do for their Alberta to Hawaii flights, before they acquired 767s — and what AC just managed to do, and what Sunwing did with Eastern.)
I don’t think that’s the business that BBAM is in. In automotive terms, BBAM is more like a fleet leasing company that finances a car rather than Avis or Budget renting you a car for a few weeks. If WestJet wants to bump up capacity for just the winter season while they wait for grounded MAXs, I don’t think BBAM can help them.
I believe the short-term kind of solutions that airlines are doing now are either “wet leases” or charters — which are both essentially short-term rentals of fully-crewed, certified, licensed aircraft. (That’s what WS used to do for their Alberta to Hawaii flights, before they acquired 767s — and what AC just managed to do, and what Sunwing did with Eastern.)
I don’t think that’s the business that BBAM is in. In automotive terms, BBAM is more like a fleet leasing company that finances a car rather than Avis or Budget renting you a car for a few weeks. If WestJet wants to bump up capacity for just the winter season while they wait for grounded MAXs, I don’t think BBAM can help them.
Sep 5, 2019, 9:47 am
#156
Join Date: May 2017
Location: YEG, SFO, VCA, JR JY-13
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Posts: 923
Sorry to kinda cross-post from the AC forum, mods feel free to remove if not okay
CBC News: The National, clip last night about WS ops during MAX groundings...they mentioned that WS will soon announce a clearout of Christmas service. Sure enough, my 7M8 WS 444 flight got switched to 73H. Not sure when that happened.
@ 1:05
CBC News: The National, clip last night about WS ops during MAX groundings...they mentioned that WS will soon announce a clearout of Christmas service. Sure enough, my 7M8 WS 444 flight got switched to 73H. Not sure when that happened.
@ 1:05
Sep 18, 2019, 9:04 pm
#157
Join Date: Jan 2005
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An outstanding article just published by the New York Times:
Here’s the link. It’s a really long read - but really worthwhile.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/m...ashes.amp.html
What Really Brought Down the Boeing 737 Max?
Malfunctions caused two deadly crashes. But an industry that puts unprepared pilots in the cockpit is just as guilty.https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/m...ashes.amp.html
Sep 19, 2019, 1:30 pm
#158
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: YVR TLS
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A flawed design coupled with poorly trained and or qualified Pilot(s) in the pointy end is a deadly mix.
However if Boeing is going to market and sell their aircraft on the World market then they must set the bar for both their own design and the training for their customers Flight Crews. As we have seen this has turned into a PR nightmare for Boeing.
North American airlines pilots Associations (ALPA, AAPA) had been complaining about the Max prior to and after the deadly accidents. Only after the International groundings did Boeing sit up and take notice.
Heck before this debacle I did quite a few flights on the Max & I liked it...but knowing what we know now about this design flaw I probably would have avoided flights using the Max.
However if Boeing is going to market and sell their aircraft on the World market then they must set the bar for both their own design and the training for their customers Flight Crews. As we have seen this has turned into a PR nightmare for Boeing.
North American airlines pilots Associations (ALPA, AAPA) had been complaining about the Max prior to and after the deadly accidents. Only after the International groundings did Boeing sit up and take notice.
Heck before this debacle I did quite a few flights on the Max & I liked it...but knowing what we know now about this design flaw I probably would have avoided flights using the Max.
Nov 8, 2019, 9:05 pm
#159
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,006
Yesterday one flew YYC-YXX.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-gehf
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-gehf
Nov 9, 2019, 8:15 am
#161
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 125
Nov 9, 2019, 12:50 pm
#162
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,444
In reality, the EASA is the key to when the MAX will fly globally again, they have currently requested further documentation that they say was incomplete from Boeing, but there is no indication that the demands they will make can't be met, it is just a matter of when. For the MAX not to fly again would probably require Boeing to go bust, as the value of the fleet already delivered is about $30 billion and the undelivered aircraft are likely to be worth about $50 billion if the MAX starts flying again in Q2 2020 or instead the small possibility of it not flying again becomes apparent. An $80 billion hit on their finances would likely cause bankruptcy due to the severe loss in the current market value of about $200 billion when the shares tank, if not the lawsuits from the airlines would cause the same end result.
Nov 9, 2019, 1:52 pm
#163
Join Date: Jan 2007
Programs: No single airline or hotel chain is of much use to me anymore.
Posts: 3,279
Boeing is too big to fail, but I'm fairly sure that lawyers are working around the clock preparing a GM like bankruptcy.
An Air Canada pilot told me a few weeks ago they wouldn't be surprised to see the MAX never return to service at Air Canada if this goes on much longer. They can just keep the older Airbuses while they wait for more C Series and used or leased Airbuses and leverage Air Transat as needed.
A dispatcher at a US airline told me that the cascading cancellations aren't the result of actionable information from Boeing or the regulators, just scheduling and ticketing making their best guess and that the internal team that had been on-call 24/7 to prepare for returning the MAX to service had returned to their regular duties months ago.
An Air Canada pilot told me a few weeks ago they wouldn't be surprised to see the MAX never return to service at Air Canada if this goes on much longer. They can just keep the older Airbuses while they wait for more C Series and used or leased Airbuses and leverage Air Transat as needed.
A dispatcher at a US airline told me that the cascading cancellations aren't the result of actionable information from Boeing or the regulators, just scheduling and ticketing making their best guess and that the internal team that had been on-call 24/7 to prepare for returning the MAX to service had returned to their regular duties months ago.
Nov 9, 2019, 4:56 pm
#164
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: YVR
Programs: WS Nothing, AC Something, AS Gold. Too big for 737Max washrooms
Posts: 893
Nov 9, 2019, 5:14 pm
#165
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 980
Yesterday one flew YYC-YXX.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-gehf
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-gehf