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Originally Posted by Newman55
(Post 31060821)
The majority of the flying public doesn't know the difference between an A380 and a CRJ200.
A few days after the planes start flying again, the press will move on to some other subject that they don't understand and cause a whole new group of people to be 'outraged'. |
Originally Posted by denver19
(Post 31071189)
Ya, but you know what? Some of us, who are very frequent flyers, aren't getting on the MAX again.
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Originally Posted by denver19
(Post 31071189)
Ya, but you know what? Some of us, who are very frequent flyers, aren't getting on the MAX again. When your best customers won't use a service, good companies notice.
I am hoping UA takes that stance as well - waiting for international sign-off not just sign-off by the FAA. |
Originally Posted by Aussienarelle
(Post 31071412)
When the international aviation authorities sign-off and allow the MAX to land in their countries I will be willing to fly the MAX.
I am hoping UA takes that stance as well - waiting for international sign-off not just sign-off by the FAA. |
Originally Posted by denver19
(Post 31071189)
Ya, but you know what? Some of us, who are very frequent flyers, aren't getting on the MAX again. When your best customers won't use a service, good companies notice.
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Originally Posted by VegasGambler
(Post 31061679)
This is a great point. Regardless if how good MCAS is, it can be switched off. If the plane can't be certified as safe without it then it shouldn't be certified at all.
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“The reputations of Boeing’s board members are at stake. Investor advisory group Glass Lewis recently recommended that shareholders vote to remove one director, former Continental Airlines CEO Lawrence Kellner, because the audit committee he oversees “should have taken a more proactive role in identifying the risks associated with the 737 Max 8 aircraft.” Kellner was reelected.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.04956bf5d5dd Many of us on Flyertalk had the opportunity to meet Larry and discuss issues at the events Continental sponsored for us. |
Do I think there was some giant conspiracy at Boeing to pull one over on the FAA to get a plane into the air, safety be damned? No. But there's clearly a systemic problem at Boeing that has lead to some very poor decision making, all with the FAA asleep at the wheel.
Former Boeing Engineers Say Relentless Cost-Cutting Sacrificed Safety - Bloomberg Businessweek (May 9) "...As Boeing Co. developed the 737 Max, the newest version of its most profitable and now most infamous plane, engineers repeatedly invited FAA officials to look over their designs in one of the company’s Seattle simulators—an even more realistic mock-up incorporating pieces of actual aircraft. One purpose was to find out how to ensure that pilots switching to the new plane from previous 737 models never had to get inside one for what’s known as Level D training....Managers didn’t merely insist to employees that no designs should lead to Level D training. They also made their desires known to the FAA team in charge of 737 training requirements." Boeing Believed a 737 Max Warning Light Was Standard. It Wasn’t. - New York Times (May 5) "The warning light notifies pilots of a disagreement in the sensors that measure which direction the plane is pointed, a potential sign of a malfunction. This light could have provided critical information to the pilots on two flights that crashed shortly after takeoff in recent months." "...After discovering the lapse in 2017, Boeing performed an internal review and determined that the lack of a working warning light “did not adversely impact airplane safety or operation,” it said in its statement.. As a result, Boeing said it did not inform airlines or the Federal Aviation Administration about the mistake for a year. Only after the crash of Lion Air Flight 610 last October did Boeing discuss the matter with the F.A.A." FAA reviewing long-standing emergency procedures used in 737 Max crashes - CNN (May 10) "A long-standing Boeing 737 emergency procedure that the pilots of two Max jets employed while attempting to avert fatal crashes is under review by the Federal Aviation Administration, according to the head of a major pilots union. The basic checklist for handling an issue known as runaway stabilizer trim has remained substantially unchanged since 1967, the earliest days of the 737 jetliner, according to Dennis Tajer of the Allied Pilots Association. He said FAA officials told airline safety officials and pilots unions in April of the review." Boeing Max Failed to Apply Safety Lesson From Deadly 2009 Crash - Bloomberg (May 7) "A fatal airplane crash a decade ago prompted a life-saving fix across thousands of Boeing 737 cockpits. So why wasn’t the same lesson applied to the design of the 737 Max, an upgraded version on which 346 people died in recent disasters?...Boeing ended up changing that throttle system to prevent one erroneous altitude reading from cascading into tragedy, changes the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration subsequently made mandatory." And then you have this: Fliers plan to avoid Boeing 737 Max jets for a year or more, Barclays survey concludes - Washington Post (May 7) "Barclays downgraded its rating for Boeing stock on the basis that “a large portion of fliers are likely to avoid 737 Max for an extended period beyond when the grounding is lifted,” Barclays analysts wrote in a note to investors. Boeing stock dropped by almost 4 percent Tuesday, tracking along with a broader market sell-off...Analysts at Barclays expect customer fears to be more than a momentary blip in Boeing’s business. They expect airlines to snap up about 200 fewer of the jets in 2019 and 2020 compared with what had been expected before the grounding, as airlines shy away from a jet associated with two deadly crashes." |
[MENTION=34010]coolbeans202[/MENTION] those are the articles I have been reading in language I understand.
Sums up my feelings exactly when I watched the downgrade in Boeing stock. I think the reaction of the investment community is the only way Boeing is going to make changes. Too much comp at risk for senior leadership. |
Originally Posted by Aussienarelle
(Post 31090636)
[MENTION=34010]coolbeans202[/MENTION] those are the articles I have been reading in language I understand.
Sums up my feelings exactly when I watched the downgrade in Boeing stock. I think the reaction of the investment community is the only way Boeing is going to make changes. Too much comp at risk for senior leadership. |
Originally Posted by coolbeans202
(Post 31090084)
One purpose was to find out how to ensure that pilots switching to the new plane from previous 737 models never had to get inside one for what’s known as Level D training....Managers didn’t merely insist to employees that no designs should lead to Level D training. They also made their desires known to the FAA team in charge of 737 training requirements.
First of all, if Boeing hadn't been upfront with the FAA, I think we'd all agree that was a much bigger problem. Here, they're being called out for doing exactly what they should have done: be open and honest with the regulators. Second, UA (and, AFAIK, most airlines) only allows a pilot to carry one type certification at a time. Having a separate set of pilots who are only certified on the 737 MAX would have been bad for the airlines, bad for the customers, and bad for Boeing, so they wanted to make sure that wouldn't be necessary. Every aircraft manufacturer does substantially the same thing, including Boeing. The sainted A321neo, that was allegedly the impetus for all of these moves by Boeing... uses the same, 35-year-old type certificate as the A320. There was not some grand conspiracy to try to trick the FAA, nor was the FAA complicit in some giant hoodwinking of the flying public. Re-using old type certifications -- by the addition of a supplemental type certification, not by some sleight-of-hand -- is SOP, for very good reason. It is safer when planes have as much commonality as sensible, as there are fewer new things for a pilot to learn.
Originally Posted by coolbeans202
(Post 31090084)
"...After discovering the lapse in 2017, Boeing performed an internal review and determined that the lack of a working warning light “did not adversely impact airplane safety or operation,” it said in its statement.. As a result, Boeing said it did not inform airlines or the Federal Aviation Administration about the mistake for a year.
Originally Posted by coolbeans202
(Post 31090084)
The basic checklist for handling an issue known as runaway stabilizer trim has remained substantially unchanged since 1967, the earliest days of the 737 jetliner, according to Dennis Tajer of the Allied Pilots Association. He said FAA officials told airline safety officials and pilots unions in April of the review."
Originally Posted by coolbeans202
(Post 31090084)
Boeing ended up changing that throttle system to prevent one erroneous altitude reading from cascading into tragedy, changes the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration subsequently made mandatory.
Originally Posted by coolbeans202
(Post 31090084)
Barclays downgraded its rating for Boeing stock on the basis that “a large portion of fliers are likely to avoid 737 Max for an extended period beyond when the grounding is lifted,”
Originally Posted by Aussienarelle
(Post 31090636)
[MENTION=34010]coolbeans202[/MENTION] those are the articles I have been reading in language I understand.
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Originally Posted by jsloan
(Post 31091001)
Simplicity at the expense of accuracy is no virtue.
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Originally Posted by jsloan
(Post 31091001)
OK, look, enough of this.
First of all, if Boeing hadn't been upfront with the FAA, I think we'd all agree that was a much bigger problem. Here, they're being called out for doing exactly what they should have done: be open and honest with the regulators. Second, UA (and, AFAIK, most airlines) only allows a pilot to carry one type certification at a time. Having a separate set of pilots who are only certified on the 737 MAX would have been bad for the airlines, bad for the customers, and bad for Boeing, so they wanted to make sure that wouldn't be necessary. The sainted A321neo, that was allegedly the impetus for all of these moves by Boeing... uses the same, 35-year-old type certificate as the A320. An oversight, sure, but as multiple pilots on this thread have said, an AoA disagreement warning light, by itself, was unlikely to make any difference whatsoever. The procedure that was needed to save the aircraft does not depend upon that warning light, which is why airlines haven't paid for it. It would most likely have been ignored. The key to saving the plane was understanding that they had a runaway stabilizer -- something that has many potential causes, not just the MCAS, and certainly not just an AoA sensor malfunction. If the procedure can be improved, by all means, let's improve it. This -- the single point of failure for the MCAS -- is the core issue. Although the pilots are trained for runaway stabilizers, we can all agree that it's better if the stabilizers don't run away in the first place. |
Originally Posted by DenverBrian
(Post 31091328)
The only airline I know flying the entire fleet on a single type certificate is Southwest. It's disingenuous to insinuate that multiple sets of pilots aren't, in fact, common throughout virtually every airline.
But, you know what? I have better things to do with my time than to try to explain things over and over again, ad nauseam. |
Originally Posted by DenverBrian
(Post 31091328)
Enough of THIS. @:-)
How many of those other "potential causes" have killed 350 people in the last decade? |
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