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-   -   B737MAX Recertification - Archive (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/united-airlines-mileageplus/2031779-b737max-recertification-archive.html)

BF263533 Apr 25, 2019 2:19 pm


Originally Posted by LarryJ (Post 31036751)
The 737 does not use any type of relaxed stability system. MCAS is not a stability augmentation system.

A new, clean-sheet design to replace the 737 likely would incorporate some form(s) of relaxed stability in order to improve efficiency.

According to Boeing's April 17, 2019, update MCAS is a system that enhances “pitch stability”:

“The Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) flight control law was designed and certified for the 737 MAX to enhance the pitch stability of the airplane – so that it feels and flies like other 737s.”

Boeing: The 737 MAX MCAS Software Enhancement

LarryJ Apr 25, 2019 2:46 pm


Originally Posted by BF263533 (Post 31037126)
According to Boeing's April 17, 2019, update MCAS is a system that enhances “pitch stability”:

They are talking about stability in a different context.

The handling characteristic that MCAS addresses is the pitch feel at very high angles-of-attack. The pitch feel is lighter which could lead a pilot, accustom to the pitch feel of the 737 NG, to over-control and apply too much nose-up elevator input. MCAS provides a nose-down bias, through the input of nose-down stabilizer trim, to produce a pitch feel that is similar to the 737 NG.

The relaxed stability systems, that are used on some airplanes, reduce the static stability around the lateral axis (pitch) by moving the aircraft's CG aft. This reduces the moment-arm between the CG and center-of-lift (CL) which reduces both drag and stability. This is done during all phases of flight, or during high-speed and cruise flight, so as to maximize the benefit from the reduced drag. Such an airplane would be difficult to fly due to the constant need to correct pitch so stability augmentation systems are needed.

The 737 does not use a relaxed stability system, such as what you described in your post titled "Relaxed Static Stability (RSS)".

The MAX's heavier engines, positioned farther forward, would tend to produce a more stable aircraft, all else equal, due to the more forward CG location. The lighter pitch feel at high AoA comes from the larger nacelles producing more lift in those non-normal situations. It is not a condition that the airplane would experience during normal operations. It is not a feature that was designed in to increase efficiency as is a relaxed stability system.

BF263533 Apr 27, 2019 12:54 am

Do They Need to Do a D Check For Each Max?
 
"(CNN)The day after Ethiopia's minister of transportation released a preliminary crash report on Ethiopian Airlines flight 302, four Boeing employees called an Federal Aviation Administration whistleblower hotline that allows employees and the public to report aviation safety issues. .........."

"Among the complaints is a previously unreported issue involving damage to the wiring of the angle of attack sensor by a foreign object, according to the source."

"Boeing has reportedly had previous issues with foreign object debris in its manufacturing process; The New York Times reported metal shavings were found near wiring of Boeing 787 Dreamliner planes, and the Air Force stopped deliveries of the Boeing KC-46 tanker after foreign object debris was found in some of the planes coming off the production line."


https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/26/polit...rts/index.html

fly18725 Apr 27, 2019 8:36 am


Originally Posted by BF263533 (Post 31041740)
"(CNN)The day after Ethiopia's minister of transportation released a preliminary crash report on Ethiopian Airlines flight 302, four Boeing employees called an Federal Aviation Administration whistleblower hotline that allows employees and the public to report aviation safety issues. .........."

"Among the complaints is a previously unreported issue involving damage to the wiring of the angle of attack sensor by a foreign object, according to the source."

"Boeing has reportedly had previous issues with foreign object debris in its manufacturing process; The New York Times reported metal shavings were found near wiring of Boeing 787 Dreamliner planes, and the Air Force stopped deliveries of the Boeing KC-46 tanker after foreign object debris was found in some of the planes coming off the production line."


https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/26/polit...rts/index.html

It would be helpful if CNN, and anyone commenting on the article, understood how an AOA sensor is integrated and installed on the airframe. The process is unconnected to the FOD allegations in the N.Y. Times article and unrelated to structural checks.

Do you even know what a D Check is?

Newman55 Apr 27, 2019 9:07 am

The CNN article is basically just an aggregation of three clickbait articles. No new information; just lazy journalism.

mduell Apr 27, 2019 11:08 am


Originally Posted by BF263533 (Post 31041740)
Do They Need to Do a D Check For Each Max?

Betteridge's law of headlines applies, so no.

N830MH Apr 29, 2019 2:39 pm

How long the 737-MAX9 grounding? When they will put back in service?

EmailKid Apr 29, 2019 2:49 pm


Originally Posted by N830MH (Post 31049906)
How long the 737-MAX9 grounding? When they will put back in service?

Unknown.

Boeing has not submitted the fix to FAA - so (re)certification process has not even started.

AA and WN pushing back MAX on the schedule to August (for now) should be a hint.

andryas Apr 29, 2019 3:47 pm


Originally Posted by LarryJ (Post 31037208)
They are talking about stability in a different context.

The handling characteristic that MCAS addresses is the pitch feel at very high angles-of-attack. The pitch feel is lighter which could lead a pilot, accustom to the pitch feel of the 737 NG, to over-control and apply too much nose-up elevator input. MCAS provides a nose-down bias, through the input of nose-down stabilizer trim, to produce a pitch feel that is similar to the 737 NG.

.

So, is a current 737 pilot certified to fly the MAX with MCAS permanently turn off? If yes, just turn off the questionable feature, why the grounding is necessary? If not, then why the solution of turning off MCAS when it is faulted is even acceptable?

lazytom Apr 29, 2019 5:13 pm


Originally Posted by andryas (Post 31050073)
So, is a current 737 pilot certified to fly the MAX with MCAS permanently turn off? If yes, just turn off the questionable feature, why the grounding is necessary? If not, then why the solution of turning off MCAS when it is faulted is even acceptable?

You cannot turn off MCAS by itself. You can only turn off electric stab trim, which is used in many other situations completely unrelated to MCAS. I think it would be quite a large inconvenience to do manual trim all the time.

DenverBrian Apr 29, 2019 6:42 pm


Originally Posted by lazytom (Post 31050310)
You cannot turn off MCAS by itself. You can only turn off electric stab trim, which is used in many other situations completely unrelated to MCAS. I think it would be quite a large inconvenience to do manual trim all the time.

So MCAS can't be "turned off." Except that now, according to the "fixes," it'll only operate once, in extremely rare instances, and then turn itself off. One time, a small nose-down, and then "I give up - you pilot this thing."

So, again: What's this thing good for?

mduell Apr 29, 2019 9:38 pm


Originally Posted by DenverBrian (Post 31050539)
So MCAS can't be "turned off." Except that now, according to the "fixes," it'll only operate once, in extremely rare instances, and then turn itself off. One time, a small nose-down, and then "I give up - you pilot this thing."

So, again: What's this thing good for?

Pitch feel in high AoA attitudes.


Originally Posted by spin88 (Post 30915702)
And the first hit....

Garuda Airlines (Indonesia) cancels Order for 49 MAX, saying they have "low confidence" in the airplane.... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.68d185aa3def

First of many I would expect to be coming....

And the MAX10 is the worst dog of them all, and its not even launched.

Funny you should say that, "cancels" is nuanced:
"We will replace the orders with Boeing's Max 10s and 787s," Garuda President Ari Ashkara told the Nikkei Asian Review on Wednesday.

DenverBrian Apr 30, 2019 6:59 am


Originally Posted by mduell (Post 31050938)
Pitch feel in high AoA attitudes.

In a high AoA attitude. Singular. Because the "revised" software will activate MCAS ONCE, pitch the nose down a smaller amount than previously...and then shut. off.

So, again: What's this thing good for?

fly18725 Apr 30, 2019 7:14 am


Originally Posted by DenverBrian (Post 31052022)
In a high AoA attitude. Singular. Because the "revised" software will activate MCAS ONCE, pitch the nose down a smaller amount than previously...and then shut. off.

So, again: What's this thing good for?

The question has been asked and answered multiple times. It is apparent that you either do not understand, or are not satisfied with, the answer.

DenverBrian Apr 30, 2019 9:04 am


Originally Posted by fly18725 (Post 31052078)


The question has been asked and answered multiple times. It is apparent that you either do not understand, or are not satisfied with, the answer.

Yep, several here have tied themselves in knots justifying things. I'm not satisfied.


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