United Airlines Kicks Elderly Professor Couple Off Late-Night Flight
#151
Join Date: May 2010
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I do believe that part of the events contributed largely to the deterioration, and to what ultimately transpired.
As an outsider like me, this whole fiasco could be simply summarized as:
1) A Flight Attendant who mishandled/lost a boarding pass necessary to resolve a seating issue, but who couldn't admit to her fault, and thus dug her heels in.
2) Passengers who were adamant to immediately prove they were in the right, and thus dug their heels in.
A bad combination...with a predictable outcome.
#152
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: ORD (formerly SAN)
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Huh. Somehow, I've never seen a red mist when I've been asked to move. And, yes, I've been asked to give up better seats for worse ones.
I've also had my seat assignment changed after I had already printed out a boarding pass, both for better (upgrades) and worse (moved out of the exit row), which is why I stated earlier that a boarding pass proves nothing.
Seat assignments are not guaranteed. Sometimes that works in your favor, as somebody else loses a prime seat and you get it. Sometimes, it works against you. Either way, everyone gets to the destination at the same time.
I've also had my seat assignment changed after I had already printed out a boarding pass, both for better (upgrades) and worse (moved out of the exit row), which is why I stated earlier that a boarding pass proves nothing.
Seat assignments are not guaranteed. Sometimes that works in your favor, as somebody else loses a prime seat and you get it. Sometimes, it works against you. Either way, everyone gets to the destination at the same time.
#153
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,875
Huh. Somehow, I've never seen a red mist when I've been asked to move. And, yes, I've been asked to give up better seats for worse ones.
I've also had my seat assignment changed after I had already printed out a boarding pass, both for better (upgrades) and worse (moved out of the exit row), which is why I stated earlier that a boarding pass proves nothing.
Seat assignments are not guaranteed. Sometimes that works in your favor, as somebody else loses a prime seat and you get it. Sometimes, it works against you. Either way, everyone gets to the destination at the same time.
I've also had my seat assignment changed after I had already printed out a boarding pass, both for better (upgrades) and worse (moved out of the exit row), which is why I stated earlier that a boarding pass proves nothing.
Seat assignments are not guaranteed. Sometimes that works in your favor, as somebody else loses a prime seat and you get it. Sometimes, it works against you. Either way, everyone gets to the destination at the same time.
The manifest lists, among other things, the passengers who are expected to be on the flight and each person's seat assignment. A passenger wouldn't normally see the full manifest. However, the FA has access to the entire manifest in their version of the United app, which is available on the phones/tablets they carry with them.
More to the point, you had access to your seat assignments -- the only part of the manifest that's really relevant here -- on the mobile boarding passes in the United app. If you do not have, or do not use, the United app, the FA would have been able to look up the correct seats for all parties.
Your story seems to be missing that step, where the FA determines whose boarding pass is correct and whose is not. For a disinterested observer, this is the crucial point.
More to the point, you had access to your seat assignments -- the only part of the manifest that's really relevant here -- on the mobile boarding passes in the United app. If you do not have, or do not use, the United app, the FA would have been able to look up the correct seats for all parties.
Your story seems to be missing that step, where the FA determines whose boarding pass is correct and whose is not. For a disinterested observer, this is the crucial point.
Secondly, "whose boarding pass is correct" is meaningless. You have passengers who have a boarding pass that scanned. How is that "incorrect?" Are you saying a manifest is "correct"? Of course not. A manifest may be incorrect. The manifest may show a passenger in a seat when the passenger is not in the seat. That much is obvious.
..... the position that passengers should be moved as the FA so desires. Not everybody takes that view point. In fact, the whole point is that FAs often are on a power trip, don't admit they are wrong, and the whole question is why someone has to put up with it? Why are they allowed to be jerks? If they were allowed to carry guns do you just allow them to shoot people? "I felt threatened"
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Sep 16, 2019 at 9:22 pm Reason: DIscuss the issue; not the poster(s)
#154
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,415
However, it also happens on board the flight. I've moved from an exit row window to a non-exit row middle in order to accommodate a family, at the FA's pleading. I've been asked to move from 1A to 13A on the CRJ200 -- from one of the only tolerable seats to the worst of them all.
At no point did I have to battle red mist. Life goes on.
Secondly, "whose boarding pass is correct" is meaningless. You have passengers who have a boarding pass that scanned. How is that "incorrect?" Are you saying a manifest is "correct"? Of course not. A manifest may be incorrect. The manifest may show a passenger in a seat when the passenger is not in the seat. That much is obvious.
If FAs are "often" on a power trip, I suppose I must have fantastic luck, because out of the hundreds that I've met, I can think of maybe two that seemed to be having a really bad day.
I would estimate the ratio of bad passengers to bad FAs that I've personally seen to be on the order of 50:1, depending upon how obnoxious somebody has to be to qualify as "bad." Now, in fairness, 50:1 is also the FAA-mandated maximum passenger:FA ratio, so what I'm really saying isn't that FAs are saints, but rather that the two groups are about equal.
Last edited by jsloan; Sep 16, 2019 at 9:47 pm Reason: Removed response to deleted content; updated quote to match moderator edit.
#155
Join Date: Oct 2009
Programs: UA 1K, Hilton ♦ , Hyatt Carbonado, Wyndham ♦, Marriott PE, "Stinking Bum" elsewhere.
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Here is a post from 2017 with an example that I witnessed of indefensible FA behavior:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/28156538-post783.html
#156
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Programs: QF Gold LTG (ow Saph), HHon Silver, Marriot Gold
Posts: 2,927
Originally Posted by Jessie and
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[color=Blue
To clarify, the FA and GA were discussing removing us from the flight, claiming we sat in the wrong seat and refused to leave. That is why we tried to show her the recovered BP, as a way to stop them from carrying out their threat. I tapped the elbow only after they refused to acknowledge my verbal attempts of getting their attention.
.
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First thing the FA would have done is look at the boarding passes.
They either have a duplicate and need to sort it out.
Or.
You are in the wrong seats and need to move
If the FA has gone to sort it out, then they've acknowledged a duplicate I'd think.
They've then moved the other pax to a different seat, and unless another person shows up with yet another duplicate, you are in the correct seats
#157
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You can find the new and improved UA rules after the Dao incident in multiple websites. Here is one of them: https://www.eonline.com/news/846487/...moval-incident
United Airlines Announces 10 Policy Changes in Response to Passenger Removal Incident by FRANCESCA BACARDI | Thu., Apr. 27, 2017 8:30 AM
The ten changes UA promised to do after the Dao incident are as follows. Please note #2 and recall that we had been seated for 20 minutes before the other BG5 passenger showed up.
1. Limit use of law enforcement to safety and security issues only.
2. Not require customers seated on the plane to give up their seat involuntarily unless safety or security is at risk.
3. Increase customer compensation incentives for voluntary denied boarding up to $10,000.
4. Establish a customer solutions team to provide agents with creative solutions such as using nearby airports, other airlines or ground transportations to get customers to their nal destination.
5. Ensure crews are booked onto a flight at least 60 minutes prior to departure.
6. Provide employees with additional annual training.
7. Create an automated system for soliciting volunteers to change travel plans.
8. Reduce the amount of overbooking.
9. Empower employees to resolve customer service issues in the moment.
10. Eliminate the red tape on permanently lost bags by adopting a "no questions asked" policy on lost luggage.
United Airlines Announces 10 Policy Changes in Response to Passenger Removal Incident by FRANCESCA BACARDI | Thu., Apr. 27, 2017 8:30 AM
The ten changes UA promised to do after the Dao incident are as follows. Please note #2 and recall that we had been seated for 20 minutes before the other BG5 passenger showed up.
1. Limit use of law enforcement to safety and security issues only.
2. Not require customers seated on the plane to give up their seat involuntarily unless safety or security is at risk.
3. Increase customer compensation incentives for voluntary denied boarding up to $10,000.
4. Establish a customer solutions team to provide agents with creative solutions such as using nearby airports, other airlines or ground transportations to get customers to their nal destination.
5. Ensure crews are booked onto a flight at least 60 minutes prior to departure.
6. Provide employees with additional annual training.
7. Create an automated system for soliciting volunteers to change travel plans.
8. Reduce the amount of overbooking.
9. Empower employees to resolve customer service issues in the moment.
10. Eliminate the red tape on permanently lost bags by adopting a "no questions asked" policy on lost luggage.
On the other hand, the second you don't adhere to the request, you technically ARE a safety/security risk, so it seems very easy for them to throw that line item out the window.
#158
Join Date: Oct 2009
Programs: UA 1K, Hilton ♦ , Hyatt Carbonado, Wyndham ♦, Marriott PE, "Stinking Bum" elsewhere.
Posts: 5,000
I have flown on many airlines (was formerly UA 1p or 2p for many years pre-merger) and have never “lost” my seat assignment without a reason. Typically on AA when they have aircraft changes. Are you saying you commonly lose your seat on UA for worse ones without a reason? Upgrades are a different reason altogether and those make sense. I’m just confused why non-upgrade lost seat assignments are so common for you.
See here:
Random seat changes to UA itineraries after they are booked & purchased [ARCHIVE]
Random seat changes to UA itineraries after having an assigned seat [Consolidated]
#159
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You leave me no choice but to assume that your seats in the manifest did not match what was printed on your boarding pass, and that the FA told you as much.
If that is the case, you were not being asked to "give up your seat involuntarily," but rather to take your assigned seat.
The fact that your assigned seat had, at one point, been different is, in my opinion, irrelevant.
If that is the case, you were not being asked to "give up your seat involuntarily," but rather to take your assigned seat.
The fact that your assigned seat had, at one point, been different is, in my opinion, irrelevant.
#160
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,875
People comment that the person "grabbed" the FA. I think we all here believe they "tapped" them on the shoulder but the FA interpreted that differently. Most of us frequent fliers know the FA is allowed to touch you but you aren't allowed to touch them. Which just simply doesn't make sense. Why is one considered "battery" and the other not?
The power differential doesn't actual help ensure safety. Far from it. If you take the same logic that the power differential of captain and co-pilot is the source of error of many flights, why isn't the power differential between FA and passengers? We all know the cases where the passenger notices an engine is on fire and no crew catches it. A passenger may get up to tell the crew (not wanting to yell it out loud and make everyone panic) but the crew yells, "Sit in your seat!"
But is it going to take a plane crashing, where that was the root cause, for things to change?
#161
Join Date: May 2010
Location: AVP & PEK
Programs: UA 1K 1.9MM
Posts: 6,360
- Weight & Balance issues
- Federal Air Marshal {FAM}
A common one also would be an upgrade cleared after boarding.
#162
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,875
On one hand, you're taking that out of context. If you buy basic economy and grab an open first class seat, you're going to be asked to leave your seat.
On the other hand, the second you don't adhere to the request, you technically ARE a safety/security risk, so it seems very easy for them to throw that line item out the window.
On the other hand, the second you don't adhere to the request, you technically ARE a safety/security risk, so it seems very easy for them to throw that line item out the window.
If you are in one seat in economy and asked to move to another seat in economy, refusing to move makes you a security risk? (that makes the question simpler, because the whole "basic economy" and "first class" is irrelevant)
#163
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This obviously wasn't a weight/balance issue, and pax are supposed to be provided a new b.p. in the latter two cases. Unless or until that happens, I don't see how the passenger in question could be seen as being in the wrong.
#164
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,415
If the passengers had said, "that's fine; can we get a copy of the boarding pass?" I suspect either (a) that would have been provided, (b) the agent would have looked exasperatedly at them and said "refresh it in your app," or (c) the agent would have given in and told the other passengers to move. Option (d), being deplaned for questioning the FA's authority, seems remote.
People comment that the person "grabbed" the FA. I think we all here believe they "tapped" them on the shoulder but the FA interpreted that differently. Most of us frequent fliers know the FA is allowed to touch you but you aren't allowed to touch them. Which just simply doesn't make sense. Why is one considered "battery" and the other not?
We all know the cases where the passenger notices an engine is on fire and no crew catches it. A passenger may get up to tell the crew (not wanting to yell it out loud and make everyone panic) but the crew yells, "Sit in your seat!"
But is it going to take a plane crashing, where that was the root cause, for things to change?
But is it going to take a plane crashing, where that was the root cause, for things to change?
Last edited by jsloan; Sep 16, 2019 at 11:06 pm
#165
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Posts: 5,000
Things happen. Roll with the punches.
Last edited by zombietooth; Sep 16, 2019 at 11:44 pm