United Airlines Kicks Elderly Professor Couple Off Late-Night Flight
#196
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A paper BP is only correct as of the time that it was issued. Having one only proves that (absent computer failure) a particular seat was assigned to you at that time. Given that seat assignments are not guaranteed, it is possible that once-accurate paper BPs may later become inaccurate.
I do not know which of the pax in this situation had the latest (i.e., most correct) BP. Giving the BP to the FA can only be for the purpose of demonstrating that your claim to the seat is not ridiculous. It is not a demonstration that your claim to the seat is correct.
I do not know which of the pax in this situation had the latest (i.e., most correct) BP. Giving the BP to the FA can only be for the purpose of demonstrating that your claim to the seat is not ridiculous. It is not a demonstration that your claim to the seat is correct.
For these reasons, I don't understand the bellyaching about the BPs. As noted, the current manifest is available to the FA; and each pax's current seat assignment is available on the app to each pax. Clearly one of the instigating factors in this dispute was the OP's mistaken belief that his/her paper BP was legal tender -- and not just a receipt indicating a situation as of one previous point in time.
#197
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True, but at what point was the BG5, late passenger re-seated then? AFTER 21C stood up and confronted the FA?
#198
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 233
The paragraphs below are excerpted from our response to PIRC.
xxx
June 24 was, until the end, a very pleasant day. After having several productive meetings at the National Institutes of Health and the Food and Drug Administration, we arrived at IAD for our flight to LAX on UA1448. We checked in at the ticketing counter around 7 pm, or more than 3 hours before the scheduled departure time. We obtained boarding passes in both paper and electronic formats, and our assigned seats were 21A (Wientjes) and 21C (Au) in the exit row.
During boarding, I was in Boarding Group 1 and I asked Gate Agent A, who was manning the boarding process, if my husband, who was in Boarding Group 2, could board together with me. She gracefully approved and asked us individually if we were willing and able to perform the exit row functions. This short exchange confirms that the UA database recognized that we each had an exit row seat.
We were greeted by Flight Attendant A when we entered the aircraft. I was impressed by her warm and pleasant demeanor and complimented her on her cheerfulness. Flight Attendant A told us that she was pleased to xxx. We then proceeded to our seats, settled in and continued to be pleased with how well the day had gone.
After 10-15 minutes, a passenger who was an off-duty UA crew member took the 21B seat. After chatting for a few minutes about her upcoming assignment xxx, my husband asked if it would be acceptable to switch seat with her. She concurred. After the switch, my husband sat in 21B.
A few minutes later, another passenger (xxx, BG5 and BE) showed up with a boarding pass for my husband’s original seat (21A). I explained there must have been a mistake as my husband had the 21A seat assignment for several days. xxx then asked Flight Attendant B (FAB) for help. I showed FAB my husband’s paper boarding pass and pointed out he had the 21A seat. FAB looked at my husband’s and xxx’s boarding passes and then took both passes to the back of the plane. A few minutes later, she returned together with Gate Agent B (GAB) and again asked for my husband’s boarding pass. I answered that we already gave it to FAB. FAB forcefully said we never gave it to her. I replied that was simply not true. FAB then said to me “get out of that seat now” in a tone one should not even use to talk to a dog. FAB also said something like do you want to be out of here. I was shocked by her statements and asked what she meant by that. FAB then lowered her face close to mine (she was standing and I was seated) and threatened to take us off the plane. The situation became tense and chaotic.
xxx
To be clear, the other passenger was re-seated after the initial FAB threat. We have this person's boarding pass as FAB "threw" a bunch of boarding passes at us at some point.
Regarding de-escalation, as shown in previous postings, we tried twice to de-escalate the situation without success. Apparently some contributors feel our efforts were inadequate. From reading their other postings on this and other threads, we have the impression that many are highly successful. If indeed you feel that being called liars and being screamed at is acceptable and one should give the other cheek, we submit you are a better person.
We thank you for your interests in the story and for providing the forum to clarify the confusions.
xxx
June 24 was, until the end, a very pleasant day. After having several productive meetings at the National Institutes of Health and the Food and Drug Administration, we arrived at IAD for our flight to LAX on UA1448. We checked in at the ticketing counter around 7 pm, or more than 3 hours before the scheduled departure time. We obtained boarding passes in both paper and electronic formats, and our assigned seats were 21A (Wientjes) and 21C (Au) in the exit row.
During boarding, I was in Boarding Group 1 and I asked Gate Agent A, who was manning the boarding process, if my husband, who was in Boarding Group 2, could board together with me. She gracefully approved and asked us individually if we were willing and able to perform the exit row functions. This short exchange confirms that the UA database recognized that we each had an exit row seat.
We were greeted by Flight Attendant A when we entered the aircraft. I was impressed by her warm and pleasant demeanor and complimented her on her cheerfulness. Flight Attendant A told us that she was pleased to xxx. We then proceeded to our seats, settled in and continued to be pleased with how well the day had gone.
After 10-15 minutes, a passenger who was an off-duty UA crew member took the 21B seat. After chatting for a few minutes about her upcoming assignment xxx, my husband asked if it would be acceptable to switch seat with her. She concurred. After the switch, my husband sat in 21B.
A few minutes later, another passenger (xxx, BG5 and BE) showed up with a boarding pass for my husband’s original seat (21A). I explained there must have been a mistake as my husband had the 21A seat assignment for several days. xxx then asked Flight Attendant B (FAB) for help. I showed FAB my husband’s paper boarding pass and pointed out he had the 21A seat. FAB looked at my husband’s and xxx’s boarding passes and then took both passes to the back of the plane. A few minutes later, she returned together with Gate Agent B (GAB) and again asked for my husband’s boarding pass. I answered that we already gave it to FAB. FAB forcefully said we never gave it to her. I replied that was simply not true. FAB then said to me “get out of that seat now” in a tone one should not even use to talk to a dog. FAB also said something like do you want to be out of here. I was shocked by her statements and asked what she meant by that. FAB then lowered her face close to mine (she was standing and I was seated) and threatened to take us off the plane. The situation became tense and chaotic.
xxx
To be clear, the other passenger was re-seated after the initial FAB threat. We have this person's boarding pass as FAB "threw" a bunch of boarding passes at us at some point.
Regarding de-escalation, as shown in previous postings, we tried twice to de-escalate the situation without success. Apparently some contributors feel our efforts were inadequate. From reading their other postings on this and other threads, we have the impression that many are highly successful. If indeed you feel that being called liars and being screamed at is acceptable and one should give the other cheek, we submit you are a better person.
We thank you for your interests in the story and for providing the forum to clarify the confusions.
#199
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#200
Join Date: May 2010
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Posts: 6,357
I am nearing a massive headache sifting through the information of this thread, but weren't there two distinctive and separate "You're getting kicked off this flight!" episodes?
In this incident that I am referring to in post number 193, I suspect the FA made the threat, then left to discuss the issue with the pilot (or other FAs) up front. It was at this time, or close-thereto, when 21C got up and followed the FA with assistant camera operator 21A in tow.
Last edited by narvik; Sep 17, 2019 at 11:35 am
#201
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THIS is EXACTLY the part that many contributors to this thread can sympathize with, especially as many have witnessed similar, UNACCEPTABLE behavior of United Airlines' flight attendants.
The other side of the coin is that it seems a bit murky as to what happened (and what potentially could have happened) after this occurred. It appears to me that if you had left it at that, remained calm and in your seat, with your [eventually] recovered boarding pass in hand, the escalation would have died down, and you could have continued on your journey. It may have involved a re-visit with other UA staff, but since you had your correct BP back in hand, the seating issue should have been able to be cleared up successfully and in your favor, AS LONG AS you remained levelheaded and calm.
By INSISTING that you prove you were in the right by DEMANDING the FA look at your boarding pass IMMEDIATELY, you added to the escalation and deterioration of the situation. Or do you see that differently?
The other side of the coin is that it seems a bit murky as to what happened (and what potentially could have happened) after this occurred. It appears to me that if you had left it at that, remained calm and in your seat, with your [eventually] recovered boarding pass in hand, the escalation would have died down, and you could have continued on your journey. It may have involved a re-visit with other UA staff, but since you had your correct BP back in hand, the seating issue should have been able to be cleared up successfully and in your favor, AS LONG AS you remained levelheaded and calm.
By INSISTING that you prove you were in the right by DEMANDING the FA look at your boarding pass IMMEDIATELY, you added to the escalation and deterioration of the situation. Or do you see that differently?
If an FA pulled something similar on me, I will happily stand my ground, with whatever happens next being fine. If UA decided to ban me for doing nothing wrong, I will happily take my business elsewhere. Rogue and crazy FA's exist on UA, as my relative is one of them. She is a nut job, and I'm sugar coating it big time. I've only had a few flights with her, and will never do so again.
So to the OP, welcome to FT, which is a wealth of knowledge overall, but I do understand why some question everything. We do have first time posters with some crazy stories and conspiracy theories, then never return to explain. You haven't done that despite what has been said. Stick around, as this will go away at some point.
#202
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A paper BP is only correct as of the time that it was issued. Having one only proves that (absent computer failure) a particular seat was assigned to you at that time. Given that seat assignments are not guaranteed, it is possible that once-accurate paper BPs may later become inaccurate.
I do not know which of the pax in this situation had the latest (i.e., most correct) BP. Giving the BP to the FA can only be for the purpose of demonstrating that your claim to the seat is not ridiculous. It is not a demonstration that your claim to the seat is correct.
For these reasons, I don't understand the bellyaching about the BPs. As noted, the current manifest is available to the FA; and each pax's current seat assignment is available on the app to each pax. Clearly one of the instigating factors in this dispute was the OP's mistaken belief that his/her paper BP was legal tender -- and not just a receipt indicating a situation as of one previous point in time.
I do not know which of the pax in this situation had the latest (i.e., most correct) BP. Giving the BP to the FA can only be for the purpose of demonstrating that your claim to the seat is not ridiculous. It is not a demonstration that your claim to the seat is correct.
For these reasons, I don't understand the bellyaching about the BPs. As noted, the current manifest is available to the FA; and each pax's current seat assignment is available on the app to each pax. Clearly one of the instigating factors in this dispute was the OP's mistaken belief that his/her paper BP was legal tender -- and not just a receipt indicating a situation as of one previous point in time.
#203
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 21,413
Upon reading the excerpt posted above, it appears that the GA did appear, presumably (although it's not in the excerpt) with a new boarding pass. It seems that the passenger found this insufficient.
#204
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 15
I'm leaning toward a bad apple UA FA. Having seen a FA go on a power trip, call the Captain, and demand the passenger be deplaned, I can see how this could be a problem. In the case I witnessed, the FA was overruled by the Captain, he even said something to her to the likes of you are out of line or something. We had about 10 of us ready and willing to support the passenger in question, and none of us could understand why the FA decided to be on whatever power trip that she was on. Needless to say, I avoided her like the plague, as did others that witnessed the event; that was self created by the FA.
If an FA pulled something similar on me, I will happily stand my ground, with whatever happens next being fine. If UA decided to ban me for doing nothing wrong, I will happily take my business elsewhere. Rogue and crazy FA's exist on UA, as my relative is one of them. She is a nut job, and I'm sugar coating it big time. I've only had a few flights with her, and will never do so again.
So to the OP, welcome to FT, which is a wealth of knowledge overall, but I do understand why some question everything. We do have first time posters with some crazy stories and conspiracy theories, then never return to explain. You haven't done that despite what has been said. Stick around, as this will go away at some point.
If an FA pulled something similar on me, I will happily stand my ground, with whatever happens next being fine. If UA decided to ban me for doing nothing wrong, I will happily take my business elsewhere. Rogue and crazy FA's exist on UA, as my relative is one of them. She is a nut job, and I'm sugar coating it big time. I've only had a few flights with her, and will never do so again.
So to the OP, welcome to FT, which is a wealth of knowledge overall, but I do understand why some question everything. We do have first time posters with some crazy stories and conspiracy theories, then never return to explain. You haven't done that despite what has been said. Stick around, as this will go away at some point.
To the other contributor, yes, we were yelled at by FA first and then again by both FA/GA.
#205
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Herein lies the problem. The fact that your husband had been in seat 21A for several days doesn't mean that there was a mistake, or that he was still supposed to be sitting in seat 21A. Now, if the situation was as described -- a Premier passenger being moved to a worse seat for someone in BG5 -- that's unfortunate and probably would have resulted in an ETC upon contacting customer service post-flight.
Granted, but I expect the average person to follow the instructions of the FAs after they investigate a situation like this one.
#206
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Join Date: Oct 2001
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Posts: 21,413
I doubt anyone expects UA to respond. I suspect that their lawyers have counseled them against saying anything in a public forum about any specific case. From their perspective, there's little upside. The specific FAs and GAs involved will be under similar instructions. The only other people who might conceivably contribute would be the other passengers on the plane, and while FlyerTalk is a relatively large community as far as it goes, I suspect that the number of UA flights with an active FlyerTalk member is well less than 5%.
I don't know; computer error? 21A was actually upgraded?
#207
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https://unitedafa.org/news/2019/7/06...ght-attendants
#208
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I had to look this up. For the PIRC to even review your case - it was determined this was an actual physical attack. The bar is pushing and shoving to sexual misconduct. I think that is the context we should start with - To even get to that point, it was determined this was not a case of simple touching. An investigator then reviews facts and makes a recommendation to a committee. If it got to a point of banning you, they must have deemed it serious.
https://unitedafa.org/news/2019/7/06...ght-attendants
https://unitedafa.org/news/2019/7/06...ght-attendants
#209
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: USA
Programs: UA Gold, Marriott Gold
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On my latest flight where the upgrade cleared very late which happened a few weeks ago, I had boarded with an E+ boarding pass. I checked the UA app every few minutes, and saw the GPU upgrade cleared maybe 15 minutes after having taken the E+ seat. Once I saw the upgrade cleared, I simply got up, walked to the newly assigned J seat, and asked the FA for a new boarding pass.
She just said (paraphrasing): "I can get you a new BP, but it may take a while, as I have to go and ask the GA for a new one."
Happy with my new seat, and not wanting to delay the flight, I simply said "Nah, don't bother, but thank you though", made myself comfortable and enjoyed the 13 hour flight in comfort. ^
A new boarding pass isn't ALWAYS issued!
She just said (paraphrasing): "I can get you a new BP, but it may take a while, as I have to go and ask the GA for a new one."
Happy with my new seat, and not wanting to delay the flight, I simply said "Nah, don't bother, but thank you though", made myself comfortable and enjoyed the 13 hour flight in comfort. ^
A new boarding pass isn't ALWAYS issued!
I don't know what happened and the story really doesn't make sense to me (as told). United is a large organization and large organizations IME don't typically take extreme actions like blackballing someone without a whole lot more having happened. PIlots IME are not going to get on the intercom and tell the whole flight that everyone's deplaning if one or two recalcitrant passengers don't but the OP"s story seems to imply that was what finally convinced them to deboard. That suggests to me there's a whole lot more to the story.
Bottom line: I have over 40 years flying various airlines -- a whole lot more than a lot of people, a whole lot less than a lot of others, but sufficient to have observed various standards of behavior. United appears to not want the professors' trade so their best bet is to just take their business elsewhere.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Sep 17, 2019 at 5:22 pm Reason: Discus the issue; Not the poster(s)
#210
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 15
I had to look this up. For the PIRC to even review your case - it was determined this was an actual physical attack. The bar is pushing and shoving to sexual misconduct. I think that is the context we should start with - To even get to that point, it was determined this was not a case of simple touching. An investigator then reviews facts and makes a recommendation to a committee. If it got to a point of banning you, they must have deemed it serious.
https://unitedafa.org/news/2019/7/06...ght-attendants
https://unitedafa.org/news/2019/7/06...ght-attendants
The earlier suggestion of another contributor of an Employee Incident Report Committee is appealing.