United Airlines Kicks Elderly Professor Couple Off Late-Night Flight
#91
Join Date: Jun 2019
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And you forget to look up the definition of offensive contact. It is not "oh I think it is offensive".
Looking at the referenced papers, what I see is "offends a reasonable sense of personal dignity". Key word being reasonable. It is not "I think it is", it is reasonable. And "reasonable person" I know is a common test in the courts to determine if others in the same situation would have acted/felt the same.
Was it reasonable in this situation? Honestly I don't know, though I do feel that while not wanted, it wasn't offensive. That's the grey area of this case, and without all the facts and perspectives we can't say 100% for sure either way. Again IANAL.
Looking at the referenced papers, what I see is "offends a reasonable sense of personal dignity". Key word being reasonable. It is not "I think it is", it is reasonable. And "reasonable person" I know is a common test in the courts to determine if others in the same situation would have acted/felt the same.
Was it reasonable in this situation? Honestly I don't know, though I do feel that while not wanted, it wasn't offensive. That's the grey area of this case, and without all the facts and perspectives we can't say 100% for sure either way. Again IANAL.
Originally Posted by calcrim 960
The slightest touching can be enough to commit a battery if it is done in a rude or angry way. Making contact with another person, including through his or her clothing, is enough. The touching does not have to cause pain or injury of any kind.
This would never* get charged though. Perfect nullification case.
*DAs have shocked me before with pettiness.
#92
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#94
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Well - I do know this - for me personally, in this post 9/11 world, I would never touch or grab a flight crew member with their back to me. I don't really do it anyway since it tends to startle people, including myself.
#95
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NYC
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Posts: 444
I think there is confusion about the narrative -- from the Forbes interview
"By this time a gate agent had arrived to assist the flight attendant, and the other person assigned the same seat had been seated elsewhere. When another passenger handed them the dropped boarding pass, the Wientjes say, they tried to get the attention of the flight attendant. They were ignored.
“They had their back to me. I said,“We have the pass here it is,” says Dr. Au. They ignored her “until I tapped her elbow from her seat. “’I just want to show you.’”"
Which is also echoed here in post 75
"I tapped her elbow because i was seated and could not reach her shoulder.
I needed to show her the BP because she had, long before i tapped her elbow, threatened to remove us from the flight because we refused to leave our seat"
Now it seems there was another attempt by the same passenger to show the boarding pass when the FA was at the cockpit
"We would like to submit a video, which shows Jessie walking up to the FA (FA had threatened to take us off the flight and was talking to other crew members near the cockpit, presumably about the same) to show the FA the BP. Jessie started off saying that Jessie did not want troubles and before Jessie could finish her sentence, the FA said aggressively/yelled that "you are coming out...you are coming out". FARK does not accept mp4 file. We will make it into a ytube file and provides the link as soon as it is done. The video will further shows the FA being substantially taller."
I have to admit also being bit confused,
Who took the video if it was near the cockpit? That is a bit of distance from row 21. How many attempts were there to show the boarding pass?
"By this time a gate agent had arrived to assist the flight attendant, and the other person assigned the same seat had been seated elsewhere. When another passenger handed them the dropped boarding pass, the Wientjes say, they tried to get the attention of the flight attendant. They were ignored.
“They had their back to me. I said,“We have the pass here it is,” says Dr. Au. They ignored her “until I tapped her elbow from her seat. “’I just want to show you.’”"
Which is also echoed here in post 75
"I tapped her elbow because i was seated and could not reach her shoulder.
I needed to show her the BP because she had, long before i tapped her elbow, threatened to remove us from the flight because we refused to leave our seat"
Now it seems there was another attempt by the same passenger to show the boarding pass when the FA was at the cockpit
"We would like to submit a video, which shows Jessie walking up to the FA (FA had threatened to take us off the flight and was talking to other crew members near the cockpit, presumably about the same) to show the FA the BP. Jessie started off saying that Jessie did not want troubles and before Jessie could finish her sentence, the FA said aggressively/yelled that "you are coming out...you are coming out". FARK does not accept mp4 file. We will make it into a ytube file and provides the link as soon as it is done. The video will further shows the FA being substantially taller."
I have to admit also being bit confused,
Who took the video if it was near the cockpit? That is a bit of distance from row 21. How many attempts were there to show the boarding pass?
#96
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I'd rather they wear recording equipment to protect the people they're interacting with, but whatever justification is necessary to get it done...
#97
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As is often the case, more information just adds to the confusion. (Reminds me of threads from people who got their MP account closed). One hopes that the video will add clarity but at best, it will be taken out of context as there is no way it will include the entire interaction from the start, just the parts that will interest the media. Whenever I see a video, I always wonder what happened prior that made the person decide to start recording.
Last edited by eng3; Sep 13, 2019 at 9:05 pm
#98
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#99
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If ppl get poor treatment at hotel or some business they go and post a review with negative feedback, write to cs etc etc.. this is really not dao like situation where things escalated out of control (and i thank pax for remaining calm and avoiding extreme confrontation)
#101
Join Date: Nov 2014
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The gate agent only goes by what the computer system gives them for seat assignments, so it wasn't the gate agent that actually assigned dupe seats. May have been a software/computer glitch or something.....I fly twice a week on United and I can't EVER remember seeing dupe seat assignments, except when a PAX is looking at their connecting flight boarding pass in error or back in the old days before the computer assignments.
Bottom line, mistakes happen. People that insist on making it personal -- passengers, FAs, GAs, whatever -- generally just make a bad situation worse. The thicker someone lays it on, the less inclined I am to believe self-serving stories.
#102
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 15
We have been advised not to provide video to avoid unnecessary litigation risks. We will provide instead three documents that UA already has access toa) an email from UA Passenger Incident Review Committee on June 24/25 demanding a response within 96 hours or face a life-time ban from UA (note it was sent to each of us at 1 am, or 2-3 hours after we were removed from the flight), (b) our response to PIRC, outlining the events on the plane, and (c) a decision letter from PIRC at end of August calling us belligerent, etc. Items (a) and (c) are in a single file.
Our PIRC response is a bit long but details most of the events and should clear up the confusions voiced by several contributors.
Please note:
Our PIRC response is a bit long but details most of the events and should clear up the confusions voiced by several contributors.
Please note:
- UA PIRC, in its response, did not dispute our description of the events.
- PIRC was given a list of potential witnesses (passengers seated in 22C, 22D and 23C, who helped us recovered the BP apparently dropped by the FA). PIRC took 2 months to finish their review, but did not offer any evidence from these witnesses to support their accusations/conclusions/decisions.
- The 96 hour deadline is non-negotiable, which in our case was very difficult as my husband’s xxx had a life-threatening stroke during that time and was going to be taken off life support as soon as my husband could travel there (Europe).
- UA apparently put me (but not Guill) on a “black list”. I was not allowed to board on the flight next day (involved 3 gate agents), was pulled aside for questioning and was allowed to board only after I promised not to cause troubles on the flight. I was also not allowed to do online check-in on the next trip, on July 5, and had to go to the ticketing counter. The ticketing counter agent said I was blocked but he did not know why. A supervisor had to do the unblocking. I canceled several flights with UA after that last incident.
- I contacted the Forbes writer in early or mid-July. He made an inquiry to UA. The next day UA Customer Care/Service called (agent’s name is Marcus) about the "ban" or "blacklist". He had no knowledge of the incident but said he would work to remove the ban. He called back in a day or two and said I was cleared to fly on UA.
- Throughout the whole ordeal, no one from UA contacted us about the incident. This is in contrary to the claim of the UA Spokesperson to Forbes: “At United, we hold ourselves to the highest standards of professionalism. Following this issue, we reached out to our customers and our team to find out what happened." Sources within the airline also note that they spoke to the Wientjes in July to talk through the incident.” The red text is untrue. No human beings from UA spoke to us about or through the incident.
- Finally, we needed to show the BP because the FA and GA were saying we sat in the wrong seats and refused to give them up (they never looked at our BP after the passengers behind us found the BP and passed it on to us). After the other passenger volunteered to take another seat, the FA went to the front and was talking to the pilot. We wanted to make sure she could not misrepresent the fact.
#103
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You can use a screensaver to save as images (jpeg, for example) then upload. Without info from 3rd party witnesses though, it’s your word vs UA’s.
”Not disputing our version of the events” is not the same as agreeing that your version of the event occurred. If they did agree, the issue would have been resolved in your favor at that point.
”Not disputing our version of the events” is not the same as agreeing that your version of the event occurred. If they did agree, the issue would have been resolved in your favor at that point.
Last edited by IAH-OIL-TRASH; Sep 14, 2019 at 5:56 pm
#104
Join Date: May 2010
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In the end, this is just a silly internet forum where participants were discussing and sharing their opinion[s] about a posted news article.
There's really no need to justify yourselves to any of us. Although I would have liked to hear your thoughts on the accuracy of the Forbes article.
We 'voiced' our impressions of a situation in which we could also find ourselves, and tried to sieve through the information at hand, and imagined how we would have handled it,
provided our opinion on how you handled it, and how the FAs behaved (and subsequently the PIRC).
Not sure providing the documents you mentioned would be particularly beneficial, at this point.
Cheers.
P.S.: By the way, you may want to remove the red color from this part of your message: The red text is untrue.