findark

Nope, YAA0AFBN is still filed.

Kacee

Ah, I didn't realize that the 14 days correlated to the first date they are available.

spin88

What we are seeing - a BE fare is available off all fare categories (only thing that is unclear is if it is only for 14 days out, we will know tomorrow ) - it is an across the board unbundling.

United's fares - what shows up in searches such as on Google - will not allow (a) seat selection (b) the ability to bring a carry on bag unless it fits under the seat (premier and CC members excepted), (c) no upgrades to F or E+ (d) no PQM/PQD or lifetime miles (e) "Ticket changes are not allowed. This includes advanced changes and same-day changes, even for Premier members. Fares are nonrefundable"

In BE markets United is now Spirit-light; trying to upsell a bundle of benefits for (in this market, in the above example) $30 RT. That United is doing this nickle and dime game on what are relatively expensive fares ($370 one way in an M in the example above) is just flabbergasting to me.

spin88

I am the customer Delta (and so they say United) wants. I pay real money to fly.... But your claims are directly contrary to what is going on. As I showed, using the same 5/25 date another poster looked at, Delta is ONLY doing BE fares on flights with the lowest fare catigories, United is doing it on ALL flights in the market. Unless I get offered the $64 fare, I don't see BE on flights on DL, I just get regular Y. On UA I get BE on every fare, and then United tries to sell me a $15 upsell (or $5 on the $370 fare). Very, Very different both in what it represents (unbundling on all fares by UA) and how it looks and I think will feel to travelers.

minnyfly

My claims are accurate. I've been shopping with DL's E fares commonly available for quite a while now. I think it's great that UA is allowing BE onto more fare classes. It creates more customer choices. It's frustrating to want to go as cheaply as possible on DL and having the E fare wiped out on all but the cheapest flights.

WN has lived for years with BS and Anytime fares almost identical. Finding two fares that UA clearly doesn't want to sell yet among dozens and dozens of flights isn't going to make a difference to anyone.

For another example of you complaining about something DL did first and is worse, you just mentioned that UA's BE fare will show up on Google searches. Uh, that was the case from day 1 with DL's E fares, except Google search doesn't let you know about it until you click the link to book it. Very annoying to think DL is the low or same price when it really isn't. One of my biggest gripes with BE is it ruins Google search.

jjmoore

I never see the point of using Google or Kayak to search flights, except to search all airlines at once. The fares 99% of the time are the same on the airlines' websites, and I would only purchase there. At least that way I would be able to avoid BE.

spin88

At some point google, etc will have to figure out how to address "BE fares", perhaps putting them into a separate fare category like some sites (Kayak for example) now do PE. In the above example, currently Google is displaying fares that are not BE for DL (the only BE is the $64 fare) vs. every single fare displayed for UA is BE, with an "upsell" required to Y. Any good site should make clear they are very different animals.

As to why? Well many (and I would say most) travelers are willing to look at multiple airlines, and one stop is always better. On a domestic leg (E.g. I have to go SFO-PHL-SFO in about three weeks) I will usually just look at the airline's web-sites, but that is because I know the networks well (so I look at DL, UA, and AA in this case). But most people don't know, so go to a third party site.

But as to fares on international flights, IMHE the airline web-sites are often more expensive. For example, we are going this week SFO-MUC-SFO. Had I just looked at UA.com I would have paid $500 more per ticket, and $400 more if I just looked at LH, but buying from a third party site (ticket as LH) I got the exact same routing, and saved $1600. The last place I would ever check first is UA.com

rowenb

I fly ORD-MSP a lot, on my own money, so for a layman I am unusually attuned to what UA's pricing practices have been on this route.

In recent months there have often been G fares available for $38-$40 one-way, albeit only at undesirable times (e.g., 5:20am).

But now, it looks like the $40 fare is N, and they've raised the normal G where available to $55.

That supports the "BE is a pure rate hike" theory shared by many posters, FWIW.

minnyfly

Searching all airlines at once is the number 1 reason I do it. The 2nd is that Google Flights is so much easier to search with than the others. I'll go to the actual website when I want to book, but if I'm price shopping, my first stop is Google.

findark

I'm already getting annoyed at the lack of this on ITA. And the airlines don't have standardized booking codes which makes /f !bc=n or similar annoying.

Actually, this isn't true for ORD. Obviously it's hard to say once you get away from the transition date. But NK seems to be driving the basement fares, and the matches are now Basic Economy. But they are a full match, which is more or less the "good case" use for BE.

rowenb

Well, if and when I see a G fare in the $35-40 range, presumably with an accompanying N fare in the $20-25 range, I'll be sure to post about it. Until then, I'll continue to believe that UA has raised their de facto floor for non-BE pricing on MSP-ORD from ~$40 to ~$55.

Kevin AA

You can't buy a ticket on Google flights. When you click "book it", it takes you to the airline's website. That's been my experience every time I've used it.

xliioper

spin88 is correct and UA is doing it very differently than DL. It's pretty clear you don't understand what he is saying. DL only sells BE fares with an X, V basis from what I've seen and they almost all have advance purchase requirements as well as min stay/RT purchase depending on markets. Once you get into the LUT and higher fare classes, either due to close-in purchase, lack of X/V inventory, not meeting min stay, etc. there are no BE fares and only Main Cabin fares on DL. In many cases, DL BE fares are not seen by business travelers because they buy shorter notice, buy one-way's, etc. UA is different in that they have BE fares corresponding to the higher fare classes and not just lowest two classes. DL does this with C+ fares, but not with BE fares.

minnyfly

Spin's initial complaint and erroneous charge was that UA was only using BE as a "bait-and-switch" up-charge mechanism, and that DL did not do that. That is simply wrong. DL's E fare is used for the exact same purpose, and it has been since day 1 (I've been affected by since the beginning). The only significant differences I see between the two, which I mention, is that in this test period UA is initially using them on more fares (a good thing for consumers), and has a different fare difference/lost amenities model. The reason behind their creation is the same for both airlines.

QBK

I think one of you guys (spin88/minnyfly) pointed out something early in this argument that's fairly important: how the two (UA/DL) programs appear to you depends on what kind of customer you are. If you are a DL hub captive booking leisure fares, then they look pretty much the same -- no matter whether you look at UA or DL, you see BE fares priced slightly below full-benefits fares, and if you are savvy, you understand that this gives you a choice whether to unbundle or not. (If you aren't savvy, it might appear to be a bait-and-switch, but we're all savvy so this is conjecture about other people).

On the other hand, if you're a business traveler booking 15 days out, then (probably) the programs look very different:
1. Looking at DL, you only see regular economy fares; no sign of BE.
2. United is still offering BE slightly below the (relatively high) regular economy fare.

Whether you see the existence of either carrier's BE fares as good/bad/indifferent really depends on your specific travel patterns. If you are booking with your own money (leisure or self-employed), then the availability of BE is generally good; it gives you options. You might not use them, but ... hey, freedom to choose! Now, UA also seems to have used this as an excuse for a price increase on the cheapest full-benefits fares, but that's a separate issue (though deceptive).

But if you're a business traveler on OPM, constrained to a corporate TA booking procedure, BE's existence stinks, because you may not have the freedom not to choose it. I'm in this category, and I really dislike the UA model because DL's model generally doesn't offer BE to me and I do not want to have it offered to me because then I might be forced to choose it. Fortunately, my corporate TA is blocking them, but this could change on a whim.

I agree that UA and DL are equally guilty of using this as a "bait-and-switch" -- it's not entirely bait-and-switch, since some people will choose to unbundle, but clearly the airlines want to upsell -- but by implementing the fare structure differently, they've chosen to market that product to different audiences.