Horrific United Flight Attendant - what to do
Jun 26, 2016, 11:17 am
#181
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: NYC / TYO / Up in the Air
Programs: UA GS 1.7MM, AA 2.1MM, EK, BA, SQ, CX, Marriot LT, Accor P
Posts: 6,321
As a data point, I am a business owner and I have terminated people immediately for grossly failing to follow documented process or being extremely rude to customers without just cause. When I have done this in the past, I have personally seen the unacceptable behavior and have taken immediate action to address it and terminate the employee.
As a business owner if I don't set the tone of what is an acceptable way to treat customers and what is not, my staff will not maintain the service standard I desire. On the flip side when I have seen customers treat my employees in an unacceptable manner, I have told them I no longer want to do business with them and I terminated the business relationship.
By the way my staff is very supportive of this practice, they want the rotten apples removed from the barrel whether they are employees or customers.
I believe the lack a true management on aircraft creates a situation which allows for substandard performance. If it were my organization every flight would have an FA who was also a fully empowered supervisor.
As a business owner if I don't set the tone of what is an acceptable way to treat customers and what is not, my staff will not maintain the service standard I desire. On the flip side when I have seen customers treat my employees in an unacceptable manner, I have told them I no longer want to do business with them and I terminated the business relationship.
By the way my staff is very supportive of this practice, they want the rotten apples removed from the barrel whether they are employees or customers.
I believe the lack a true management on aircraft creates a situation which allows for substandard performance. If it were my organization every flight would have an FA who was also a fully empowered supervisor.
BTW - you are my favorite runway....
Jun 26, 2016, 11:26 am
#182
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: LAX/TPE
Programs: United 1K, JAL Sapphire, SPG Lifetime Platinum, National Executive Elite, Hertz PC, Avis PC
Posts: 42,231
Because Japanese customers respond differently than American customers to the way service is delivered. Hence the delivery is adjusted. Americans appreciate enthusiastic and very positive service approaches, that doesn't really suit the Japanese (and it is wise to tone it down for Europeans as well).
If you read reviews and reports on here, it's a recurring occurrence that FAs with Japanese airlines - but also say Lufthansa or SAS - are perceived as 'cold' even if very professional. That's because of different cultural expectation levels and the simple fact that a German or Japanese person is simply rarely if ever going to be as easy-going and warm to strangers as many Americans are (and expect others to be).
But UA's customers and frequent flyers are mostly Americans and if you look at service delivery, you're not trying to deliver service suited to the Japanese mentality, but the American mentality.
And if I notice something from this discussion, it's the fact we're arguing about 'nice' vs 'courteous', 'friendly vs pleasant' (as if they weren't synonyms) which is ridiculous.
The FA white knights are arguing from a minimalist 'as little service as we can get away with' perspective rather than any intention of being service champions. And that's the problem when you have staff who have no interest or incentive to do anything beyond meeting the most basic most rudimentary expectations rather than showing some pride and eagerness to be the best.
If you read reviews and reports on here, it's a recurring occurrence that FAs with Japanese airlines - but also say Lufthansa or SAS - are perceived as 'cold' even if very professional. That's because of different cultural expectation levels and the simple fact that a German or Japanese person is simply rarely if ever going to be as easy-going and warm to strangers as many Americans are (and expect others to be).
But UA's customers and frequent flyers are mostly Americans and if you look at service delivery, you're not trying to deliver service suited to the Japanese mentality, but the American mentality.
And if I notice something from this discussion, it's the fact we're arguing about 'nice' vs 'courteous', 'friendly vs pleasant' (as if they weren't synonyms) which is ridiculous.
The FA white knights are arguing from a minimalist 'as little service as we can get away with' perspective rather than any intention of being service champions. And that's the problem when you have staff who have no interest or incentive to do anything beyond meeting the most basic most rudimentary expectations rather than showing some pride and eagerness to be the best.
How many threads do we have on a variety of topics that illustrate how FAs are not following the standards that were published to them, let alone UA's lack of a proper process to measure compliance and aggressively correct deficient staff.
Jun 26, 2016, 11:29 am
#183
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: NYC / TYO / Up in the Air
Programs: UA GS 1.7MM, AA 2.1MM, EK, BA, SQ, CX, Marriot LT, Accor P
Posts: 6,321
Again, the point is not to create US FAs who are clones of Japanese FAs, but rather to illustrate how Japanese airlines provide extensive (and I mean extensive) training, and enforce standards rather than publishing a manual and hoping for the best. The same training standards and enforcement standards should apply here - and many of us on this forum are held to strict performance standards in our daily work, so why can FAs get away with not uniformly following their employer's standards?
How many threads do we have on a variety of topics that illustrate how FAs are not following the standards that were published to them, let alone UA's lack of a proper process to measure compliance and aggressively correct deficient staff.
How many threads do we have on a variety of topics that illustrate how FAs are not following the standards that were published to them, let alone UA's lack of a proper process to measure compliance and aggressively correct deficient staff.
Jun 26, 2016, 11:40 am
#184
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Ewa Beach, Hawaii
Posts: 10,909
Again, the point is not to create US FAs who are clones of Japanese FAs, but rather to illustrate how Japanese airlines provide extensive (and I mean extensive) training, as nd enforce standards rather than publishing a manual and hoping for the best. The same training standards and enforcement standards should apply here - and many of us on this forum are held to strict performance standards in our daily work, so why can FAs get away with not uniformly following their employer's standards?
How many threads do we have on a variety of topics that illustrate how FAs are not following the standards that were published to them, let alone UA's lack of a proper process to measure compliance and aggressively correct deficient staff.
How many threads do we have on a variety of topics that illustrate how FAs are not following the standards that were published to them, let alone UA's lack of a proper process to measure compliance and aggressively correct deficient staff.
Jun 26, 2016, 11:45 am
#185
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: NYC / TYO / Up in the Air
Programs: UA GS 1.7MM, AA 2.1MM, EK, BA, SQ, CX, Marriot LT, Accor P
Posts: 6,321
Lol no kidding / as someone who works in the hospitality industry the lack of understanding here is appalling....
Jun 26, 2016, 12:12 pm
#186
Join Date: May 2014
Location: DMV
Posts: 2,092
Again, the point is not to create US FAs who are clones of Japanese FAs, but rather to illustrate how Japanese airlines provide extensive (and I mean extensive) training, and enforce standards rather than publishing a manual and hoping for the best. The same training standards and enforcement standards should apply here - and many of us on this forum are held to strict performance standards in our daily work, so why can FAs get away with not uniformly following their employer's standards?
How many threads do we have on a variety of topics that illustrate how FAs are not following the standards that were published to them, let alone UA's lack of a proper process to measure compliance and aggressively correct deficient staff.
How many threads do we have on a variety of topics that illustrate how FAs are not following the standards that were published to them, let alone UA's lack of a proper process to measure compliance and aggressively correct deficient staff.
Jun 26, 2016, 12:12 pm
#187
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: LAX/TPE
Programs: United 1K, JAL Sapphire, SPG Lifetime Platinum, National Executive Elite, Hertz PC, Avis PC
Posts: 42,231
Having said that, if someone has a known reputation with documented complaints, like the FA whose behavior started this thread, there needs to be a mechanism to terminate them, likewise for someone who is given remedial training more than a reasonable number of times but still logs deficiencies.
Six MONTHS later my friend who started working for ANA is just now being allowed to fly and serve passengers, under the watchful supervision of the onboard manager. How long does UA train their new FAs? What is the probationary/shadow period? What format is the initial and ongoing training delivered?
Case in point - free snacks/drink for 1K in coach - as we learned, this service enhancement was delivered in a newsletter format, and even with that, it was apparently confusing enough that too many FAs didn't know the policy correctly. I would never allow for this type of training scenario if I was running inflight service management - for smaller updates like this, I would have web based interactive training that not only explained the policy, but demonstrated standards for customer interaction and messaging, demonstrated live scenarios, and followed up with a mandatory online exam to measure understanding.
For larger service changes, each crew base would have a series of scheduled live training events where everyone is required to attend a full training session with interactive demos, Q+A and onsite exams with followup online recurrent training and exams.
For something huge like the Polaris rollout, I would hope they have an even more extensive interactive training program planned.
Jun 26, 2016, 1:29 pm
#188
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 57,617
As a data point, I am a business owner and I have terminated people immediately for grossly failing to follow documented process or being extremely rude to customers without just cause. When I have done this in the past, I have personally seen the unacceptable behavior and have taken immediate action to address it and terminate the employee.
Jun 26, 2016, 2:00 pm
#189
Join Date: Jul 2013
Programs: DYKWIA, But I'm a "Diamond Guest" UA 1K/2MM
Posts: 2,258
When you have a set of surly, lazy, and incompetent employees who have been embedded like ticks in the corporate body for decades, a little fear might be exactly what you need. It would also give heart and hope to the good employees who have been dragged down by their loser colleagues.
I think it's naive to expect that a little extra training is going to change an employee who has been delivering crappy service for 20 or 30 years.
I think this is a non-issue, because most of the very new employees are quite excellent. I just had one of these 3 days ago (she told me she was new). She was running all over the cabin checking peoples' drinks, being convivial &etc, while her elder colleagues sat in the galley playing with their phones and gossiping for most of the flight.
I think it's naive to expect that a little extra training is going to change an employee who has been delivering crappy service for 20 or 30 years.
I think this is a non-issue, because most of the very new employees are quite excellent. I just had one of these 3 days ago (she told me she was new). She was running all over the cabin checking peoples' drinks, being convivial &etc, while her elder colleagues sat in the galley playing with their phones and gossiping for most of the flight.
Jun 26, 2016, 2:04 pm
#190
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: NYC / TYO / Up in the Air
Programs: UA GS 1.7MM, AA 2.1MM, EK, BA, SQ, CX, Marriot LT, Accor P
Posts: 6,321
When you have a set of surly, lazy, and incompetent employees who have been embedded like ticks in the corporate body for decades, a little fear might be exactly what you need. It would also give heart and hope to the good employees who have been dragged down by their loser colleagues.
I think it's naive to expect that a little extra training is going to change an employee who has been delivering crappy service for 20 or 30 years.
I think this is a non-issue, because most of the very new employees are quite excellent. I just had one of these 3 days ago (she told me she was new). She was running all over the cabin checking peoples' drinks, being convivial &etc, while her elder colleagues sat in the galley playing with their phones and gossiping for most of the flight.
I think it's naive to expect that a little extra training is going to change an employee who has been delivering crappy service for 20 or 30 years.
I think this is a non-issue, because most of the very new employees are quite excellent. I just had one of these 3 days ago (she told me she was new). She was running all over the cabin checking peoples' drinks, being convivial &etc, while her elder colleagues sat in the galley playing with their phones and gossiping for most of the flight.
Heaven forbid the best employees work the best flights - instead we get Who has survived the longest / so sad...
Jun 26, 2016, 3:11 pm
#191
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NYC
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 375
Yes exactly, this will never happen but FA's should be rated on performance and seniority not seniority alone. The better you perform the better schedule you can choose. Maybe you can move up or back by say 200, and performance based on unannounced reviews by "undercover" management. Also serious violations could lead to further disciplinary action.
Jun 26, 2016, 3:16 pm
#192
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 17,460
If your staff needs to operate in fear in order to operate properly, you've got the wrong people doing the wrong jobs. There is no way fear will lead to the kind of service levels that someone who enjoys the circumstances of their employment will naturally and regularly offer.
The big question I ask is WHY do these UA FA's dislike their work so much that they resent offering even a modicum of civility to their customers. I'm just guessing relationships with their managers are strained, at best.
Otoh, as has been said often here, there are plenty of J and F pax who illustrate how little effect priviledge has on personality. That can be wearing, no matter how civil you start the day being.
The big question I ask is WHY do these UA FA's dislike their work so much that they resent offering even a modicum of civility to their customers. I'm just guessing relationships with their managers are strained, at best.
Otoh, as has been said often here, there are plenty of J and F pax who illustrate how little effect priviledge has on personality. That can be wearing, no matter how civil you start the day being.
Jun 26, 2016, 5:22 pm
#193
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: BOS
Programs: UA 1K 1.45MM, Marriott+SPG Plat, Clear, Nexus, Global Entry and MEX Viajero Confiable
Posts: 1,777
If your staff needs to operate in fear in order to operate properly, you've got the wrong people doing the wrong jobs. There is no way fear will lead to the kind of service levels that someone who enjoys the circumstances of their employment will naturally and regularly offer.
The big question I ask is WHY do these UA FA's dislike their work so much that they resent offering even a modicum of civility to their customers. I'm just guessing relationships with their managers are strained, at best.
Otoh, as has been said often here, there are plenty of J and F pax who illustrate how little effect priviledge has on personality. That can be wearing, no matter how civil you start the day being.
The big question I ask is WHY do these UA FA's dislike their work so much that they resent offering even a modicum of civility to their customers. I'm just guessing relationships with their managers are strained, at best.
Otoh, as has been said often here, there are plenty of J and F pax who illustrate how little effect priviledge has on personality. That can be wearing, no matter how civil you start the day being.
Last edited by goalie; Jun 26, 2016 at 5:33 pm Reason: Per BOTH moderator topic check reminders
Jun 26, 2016, 7:59 pm
#194
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ORD
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 16,901
Not horrific, but I had one of those "bad" crews this morning MCO-ORD. All smiley with each other with the crew, ga's catering, etc. Turn to face the pax? Smile gone all grumpy.
PBD time. I ask "is the coffee brewed?" (It usually isn't so it seemed polite to ask). The only response is not "yes" but a curt "how do you want it."
Breakfast time. The beverage comes and I'm ordered "put out your tray". Um, the beverage always comes at least 10 minutes before the meal, I dont want it out yet, thanks. Then turns to the person next to me and growls "don't you want breakfast?" She says "I ordered the omelet" and the FA responds loudly "well then PUT OUT YOUR TRAY!!!!" On and on, through the entire flight.
A special moment for all of us was when one of the aft FAs came up front to loudly gossip for 20 minutes.
Not a single one of them should be in customer service yet I can't point to a single rule or policy they violated.
UA won't make progress until they find a way to get rid of these evil people.
I'm convinced it was deliberate. They could smile to their peers but it disappeared the moment they faced us.
PBD time. I ask "is the coffee brewed?" (It usually isn't so it seemed polite to ask). The only response is not "yes" but a curt "how do you want it."
Breakfast time. The beverage comes and I'm ordered "put out your tray". Um, the beverage always comes at least 10 minutes before the meal, I dont want it out yet, thanks. Then turns to the person next to me and growls "don't you want breakfast?" She says "I ordered the omelet" and the FA responds loudly "well then PUT OUT YOUR TRAY!!!!" On and on, through the entire flight.
A special moment for all of us was when one of the aft FAs came up front to loudly gossip for 20 minutes.
Not a single one of them should be in customer service yet I can't point to a single rule or policy they violated.
UA won't make progress until they find a way to get rid of these evil people.
I'm convinced it was deliberate. They could smile to their peers but it disappeared the moment they faced us.
Jun 26, 2016, 8:03 pm
#195
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: NYC / TYO / Up in the Air
Programs: UA GS 1.7MM, AA 2.1MM, EK, BA, SQ, CX, Marriot LT, Accor P
Posts: 6,321
Not horrific, but I had one of those "bad" crews this morning MCO-ORD. All smiley with each other with the crew, ga's catering, etc. Turn to face the pax? Smile gone all grumpy.
PBD time. I ask "is the coffee brewed?" (It usually isn't so it seemed polite to ask). The only response is not "yes" but a curt "how do you want it."
Breakfast time. The beverage comes and I'm ordered "put out your tray". Um, the beverage always comes at least 10 minutes before the meal, I dont want it out yet, thanks. Then turns to the person next to me and growls "don't you want breakfast?" She says "I ordered the omelet" and the FA responds loudly "well then PUT OUT YOUR TRAY!!!!" On and on, through the entire flight.
A special moment for all of us was when one of the aft FAs came up front to loudly gossip for 20 minutes.
Not a single one of them should be in customer service yet I can't point to a single rule or policy they violated.
UA won't make progress until they find a way to get rid of these evil people.
I'm convinced it was deliberate. They could smile to their peers but it disappeared the moment they faced us.
PBD time. I ask "is the coffee brewed?" (It usually isn't so it seemed polite to ask). The only response is not "yes" but a curt "how do you want it."
Breakfast time. The beverage comes and I'm ordered "put out your tray". Um, the beverage always comes at least 10 minutes before the meal, I dont want it out yet, thanks. Then turns to the person next to me and growls "don't you want breakfast?" She says "I ordered the omelet" and the FA responds loudly "well then PUT OUT YOUR TRAY!!!!" On and on, through the entire flight.
A special moment for all of us was when one of the aft FAs came up front to loudly gossip for 20 minutes.
Not a single one of them should be in customer service yet I can't point to a single rule or policy they violated.
UA won't make progress until they find a way to get rid of these evil people.
I'm convinced it was deliberate. They could smile to their peers but it disappeared the moment they faced us.