whimike

How do you state UA won't suffer at all so matter of factly? They will be losing at least $50k/year in airfare from OP if he stops flying them. To me, at least, that seems like some level of loss.

ORD4R

That is correct. Threads like this and stories like this in the media, are priceless in discouraging this kind of behavior. "Horror" stories of losing all their miles help discourage this behavior.

It is the same reason the IRS does press releases around tax time of all the tax cheats they have prosecuted and their sentences. They in particular like to highlight celebrity convictions, to get the most impact on the general population.

FlytheTail

I've noticed these certs and upgrades being sold over the years, and often times there's an acknowledgment on the eBay site that the certificates can't be sold, so instead they are selling an envelope with the cert inside, or advice on how to use the cert. Clearly this doesn't hold water.

Here's a recent example of a $125 E-cert (which by the way, was withdrawn) where the seller explicitly acknowledges the rule:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/United-Airli...-/162504620197

In this example, identifying who has a $125 E-cert that expires on 23 May and who lives in that particular city (population of 1,300) would be a cakewalk for United.

username

I have been watching too much news about the Russian thing and now I wonder if OP works for UA and this thread is meant to scare people

zombietooth

By having an eBay or Fakebook account, you give away any right to confidentiality.

I have worked with an asset recovery organization in the past, and they have told me that they can get any info they want on anything that has ever been sold/listed on eBay...for a price. Just like with Fakebook (in case FTers didn't know, there are private groups on Fakebook that sell and barter travel instruments) , eBay sells anything and everything they can to generate revenue-including your personal information.

To the OP:

I knew a 30 year GS who got caught selling GPUs on eBay and, after confessing completely and apologizing in a certified letter, he was placed on probation for many months and finally had his account reinstated. Don't emphasize your value to UA in your letter, emphasize UA's value to you, and how much you appreciated all those years of elite treatment, their excellent route network, etc., etc.

Good Luck.

JonNYC

You are correct, eBay does not share this information with the airlines nor consider these kind of airline program infractions "fraudulent or illegal activities"--that's reserved for far more serious eBay infractions.

Of course the various programs -do- pose as sellers and buyers on eBay, and do accumulate a lot of information that way. eBay -will- close some auctions at the airline's request/demand, but that's as far as it goes.

NoLaGent

The best, most wonderfully accurate advice I've ever read concerning this subject.

It's the only hope one has in this kind of situation.

EMan

I take your point, however, I think UA and The Taxman take the position that your GPUs/RPUs are a form of discount off the tickets you had to buy to get them. UA doesn't just give them away for free.

Similarly, selling Upgrades could be regarded as rebate for the tickets purchased. If it was income, UA would need to issue 1099-MISC forms, no? It is possible, in the future, that the IRS may say that income from selling Upgrades is taxable......But, I don't see any rumblings in that area.

By not allowing people to sell their GPUs/RPUs, UA is not helping us and not helping themselves, IMO. (Viz. In my case, the person who receives a free upgrade from me doesn't have to buy one from UA).

Often1

UA loses $ Millions to this kind of fraud. UA could not buy a better deterrent than threads such as this.

UA doesn't look at any one passenger, it looks at the overall practice.

An absolute guarantee that net-net it does just fine by firing a minute # of fraudsters every year. DL & AA do it as well, so it's not as though UA is an outlier.

jhayes_1780

would help to know the tone and context of your emails to UA.

hirohito888

The issue is that OP breached the T&C and the contract between OP and UA. UA has deemed that this breach is serious enough to discontinue business with the OP, regardless of how much money he's spending.

As Often1 pointed out, it's also a deterrent to future fraud. And basically a mechanism for the entire industry to prevent fraud.

Analogy would be similar to banks and money laundering. A drug dealer can be paying a bank thousands of dollars in services a year to launder illicit funds. Fee for service wise, it's quite profitable for a bank. But if a bank finds a red flag, the bank will discontinue business with its customer, no matter how wealthy or profitable he/she is. In addition, the bank will also file various forms to report to local government for further investigation.

In the end, it's not about how much revenue/profit. It's to stop the fraudulent activity.

N104UA

While I emphasize with the OP, a little of me wants to say, should have known better as well. The ETCs, CPUs, and miles are something UA gives you in return for your loyalty, they are not currency and they are not your property (as many think).

A company I worked for once gave nice Christmas gifts and people were selling them on Craigslist, after it was made clear that they could not be sold (although you could regift them), my understanding was some people were fired due to that as they violated company policy.

Unfortunately I cannot feel bad for the OP as I feel that someone who has flown UA for 30 years (i.e. been a member of MP from the beginning) should have known that doing this was against the rules and would be prohibited, a defense of "well everyone else was doing it" is not a very good one, and the OP was assuming he/she would not be caught.

Good for UA for closing this one account and making an example of someone (although if you read FT it happens more often than you would think) as if everyone engages in this bad behavior, UA could just decide to take away some benefits offered to MP members

MY-OTHER-BROTHER-"TED"

There's the subliminal message --- UA is of the theory that firing a few GS members, once in a while, is no BIG deal, as they'll eventually make it up in quantity!

ftweb

Most of the posts here are focusing on whether UA is too hard or whether sufficient groveling could get the account reinstated. But suppose the OP really is banned from UA and in a market where UA has the best routes. Another question people could usefully address is what to do if you find yourself banned from MP. In particular:

• Can you still earn *G on another *A carrier while flying UA metal? If so, what is the second-best FF program to join for a US-based UA flyer?
  
• What happens to you as a non-MP *G in irrops?
  
• Can you still use the UA app for boarding passes and such, or will on-line check-in be impossible when you are someplace without a printer?
  
• Are you banned from UC membership as well? Of course *G on another *A effectively gives you this, but then are you banned from WiFi in clubs that require you to enter an MP number?
  
• Can you still get Premier Access, free bags, and Priority boarding with a Chase MP Credit card, or are those benefits tied to your MP number?
  
• What other non-obvious consequences will there be (e.g., difficulty getting receipts for in-flight purchases, high IDB priority, difficulty getting trusted traveler info to stick to your reservation, ...)?

N104UA

UA wants to ensure that the upgrades are used due to your loyalty and not for you to make a buck. As for giving them to ANYONE you are correct you can find a random person and give it to them for nothing in return, but be aware that if too many people begin using your certificates UA may detect fraud and shut down your account (they can do it at anytime at UAs sole discretion and without reason), this could end up being a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

When UA sells miles they definitely report that as income to the IRS. Giving away miles is different as UA clearly states they have no cash value, it is like a restaurant giving out a $10 off coupon, they don't have to report that as a $10 liability on the books as they technically have no obligation to honor it like they would have to if it were a financial instrument.

UA makes this very clear in their terms and conditions, which you acknowledge you read it and when you click "I Agree" there is a assumption that you did read them (this has actually been held up in court), furthermore if you do a quick Google search on selling miles most of the first few results will say not to do it.