physioprof

What I assume airlines care about isn't stuff like this, but a pattern of canceling refundable flights so close to departure that they can't sell the freed-up seat.

Hipplewm

I do the buy 2 tickets AAA-BBB and AAA-CCC and wait for the dominoes to fall, cancel one and get on the other plane

I do it more than I would like to admit. I mean if UA doesn't want my business and that is what my business is, i guess I'll find someone else. i am not doing it maliciously or for any monetary gain, it is just worth it to me to have a seat where i need to go.

jsloan

You are unlikely to be very successful "find[ing] someone else." Even WN considers this to be a prima facie example of malicious behavior -- there was a thread highlighted in TalkMail a while back about a recent WN software upgrade being more aggressive about cancelling duplicate bookings.

The problem, from UA's perspective, is that by holding two seats without the intent to use both of them, you're depriving them of the ability to sell whichever one ends up getting cancelled. Leaving aside the veracity of that statement -- assuming you're talking about Y seats, UA is perfectly willing to oversell the flight -- I would not recommend doing this frequently lest you get burned. (Also, unless you are purchasing a fully unrestricted ticket, there likely is a monetary difference between your approach and their preferred approach, which is "buy on ticket and change it if necessary," even if that's not your primary motivating factor).

Having said that -- UA doesn't appear to have gone as far as WN, which was flagging anything departing the same airport on the same day (so if you flew AUS-HOU at 6 AM, HOU-AUS at 1 PM, and AUS-LAX at 8 PM, they were flagging it despite that clearly being possible to fly). If there is enough time for you reasonably to get back to your origin in between, there doesn't seem to be a problem.

MY-OTHER-BROTHER-"TED"

Continually booking 2 different itineraries for different destinations that has you in the air on 2 planes at the same time, will definitely get you your wish to take your business elsewhere.

I'd make a note of this particular thread title so you can come back on here in the future, eliminating the need to start another thread, after you get popped, and the dominoes fall.

TomMM

Let us know how many upgrades you get on Greyhound.

Hipplewm

Don't get me wrong, if I get in trouble, I'll book AAA-BBB on United and AAA-CCC on Delta or American


I would rather go greyhound than WN

nerdbirdsjc

This +1000%

Major global carriers (including every US legacy airline) are aggressively deploying third-party fraud detection companies and/or leveraging Big Data to identify and address 1) ticketing/booking violations (including improper/excessive use of waivers), 2) FF misuse, and 3) IT-related shenanigans at lower conduct thresholds and with much faster response times than ever.

For example, in tandem with the revised schedule change policy, United vastly expanded its automated pre-departure auditing of PNRs with schedule change fee waived reissues. The audit system automatically detects whether a bona fide schedule change (triggering re-booking rights) occurred, and whether proper UA/UAX flights were used for the re-accommodation (or if a supervisor specifically authorized any deviation from the rules). PNRs flagged by the audit for improper handling are reviewed by the Corporate Security department.

jsloan

Personally, assuming that you're traveling on the same date in both cases, I would start doing it this way immediately. While you still run the risk of having your account closed for excess cancellations, you're less likely to show up at the airport with no ticket because UA detected the overlap and cancelled them both.

fastair

"UA reserves the right to cancel bookings and/or reservations which it deems fraudulent, abusive, illogical, fictitious, which are booked and/or reserved with no intention of flying, or for which the passenger makes a misrepresentation without notice to the passenger or the individual making the booking. The types of improper reservations that UA will cancel without notice include, but are not limited to: reservations made without having been requested by or on behalf of the named passenger; reservations made to hold or block seats for the purpose of obtaining lower fares, MP award inventory, or upgrades that may not otherwise be available; reservations made to circumvent any of UA’s fare rules, policies or provisions; reservations made for the same passenger on flights traveling on or about the same date between one or more of the same or nearby origin or destination cities; and reservations with connections that depart before the arrival on the inbound flight."

Rule 5 in the CoC https://www.united.com/web/en-US/con...-carriage.aspx

Hipplewm

See, to me that is saying like ORD-SFO and ORD-SJC and having both of them valid

For instance lats week I had ATL to PHX and ATL to MSP and I didn't know which place I was going until the day before the flight.

I guess if it seems like it might be against the rules, I'll start making the second flight on AA, I am almost EP anyway, might as well finish it. That way there is no way I can run afoul of that rule.

I never did it to get a cheaper fare - 99% of the time, I was on refundable F fare....oh well, cest la vie

Thanks for the heads up

jsloan

Origin or destination.

Believe it or not, that might actually make it worse from UA's perspective, as they don't oversell F. So, while they were certainly happy to get the revenue for the seat that you used, the ticket that you cancelled may well have ended up going to an upgrader or a TOD, vs. a paid first fare if they'd had the seat open earlier.

I understand your point of view -- UA seems to be filling the F cabin well before departure, and you don't want to end up in a situation where you have a ticket for PHX, need to be in MSP, and there's nothing available. Honestly, I think the best solution here would be for UA to hold back one or two seats in F on every flight, giving them the ability to accommodate last-minute purchases, SDCs, and destination changes like yours. Whatever held back seats aren't taken can then go to upgrades / TODs at the gate. (And I say this as someone with an acceptable CPU% well before the gate -- I think UA is messing up by giving me that upgrade early when you might buy the seat later).

Anyway, I don't think any of us are trying to pile on, and I definitely appreciate your taking this in the constructive way in which it's intended. :-) I hate reading stories like the OP's, and I would hate to have any FT member come back and report a similar experience.

physioprof

This isn't even a gray area, and is right in the heart of what United forbids.

jsheer

I have read through the 150+ replies in this post (I'm am the OP) multiple times and I appreciate the support from many of you on this situation.

I'll start by saying that UA's customer service (1k/GS) has been top quality, always amiable, and accommodating my needs as a frequent traveler. I learn the name of each representative while I am speaking with them , and the company's service quality has only risen over the years, especially the last few years where they continually strive to make my travel challenges more tolerable. Kudos to Mr. Munoz's culture and vision to make the typically arduous activity of travel the most pleasant as can be.

I suppose the two most troubling elements of the situation are the facts that I was not contacted in any manner by UA to convey that my account was closed, locked, and forfeited. I learned this mid-flight trying to check-in, had to pay baggage fees for the first time in eight years, and relegated back from Group 1 boarding.
Secondly, the loss of awards from a program that I funded through loyalty for many years was extraordinary. This was also funded by my Presidential Plus card which I have maintained as a primary card for six years acquiring many of the miles, and benefits that have been accrued. All those awards are gone as well, another penalty of this situation.

I will attempt to address some of the questions throughout the various posts. There was mention of me possibly being a 'plant' by UA, or a setup to send a message. That is not the case. I am a frequent flier who has only flown UA over many years.

Also, there was question to my tone to United and my letter to Mr. Munoz.Below is the letter to UA.

Mr. Munoz, if you have 5 minutes to review the note below, I’d appreciate it.

I am a huge advocate of the culture changes you have implemented over the last few years at United and have been 1K or Global Services since 2011.
I mistakenly posted one of my granted E-certificates on E-bay, a first time event and i noticed many other posts of this nature, so i gave it an attempt.
As i Checked in for my flight this week, being midstream of a round trip, I had considerable trouble and learned my MileagePlus account was CLOSED, with no notification, email, contact or any communication from your organization. In fact, i was shuffled across three orgs to finally learn that this was in regards to the posting.
I learned that my posting violated policy, upon which i immediately removed the post.
United MileagePlus and Compliance have stated this will not be reversed.
This is a very disturbing series of events, and I apologize for the miscue, however it was benign, and quickly remediated.

Your customer service story regarding this action has been very hard to accept as i have been a loyal customer for many years, and I am frankly surprised at this response from United.


I have spent 30-50k per year annually. imho, it could have been handled in a more reasonable manner, as this is not a chronic misuse, was an act of ignorance, and I genuinely want to remain with the airline.

I don't know how they reconciled my Ebay account with my MP account. I never posted the E-Cert number, only the posting of the availability of a cert for sale.

I appreciate your support, and agree. I apologized to United for this situation both verbally to the Compliance team and to Customer Support.


Yes, RPU and GPUs, only a few E-certs that were still valid. I have used a few however more have expired on me than I have used. 25 upgrades are earned by frequent flying and I 'believe' i earn them for all the Credit card incentives on the Presidential Plus card.

Thank you very much. I appreciate your support.

Again, thank you for your support.


I have booked 3 flights, 2 internationally since this occurred, all on alternative airlines. This was highly inconvenient and less desirable, however I need to start to build a loyalty portfolio on an airline where I can reap benefits, something that everyone should understand.


Obviously, I didn't read the T&Cs.

I have not spent time to reverse engineer the situation and how they reconciled my Ebay account to my MP account, except when I spoke with the Compliance team, they stated my account was closed due to policy violation of 'posting an E-cert' on Ebay, which I immediately stated 'Yes i did, and i didnt realize the situation'. That could have been the method on their confirming their suspicion.

Lot's of flying and Credit Card usage.

It was a mistake, and as a frequent flyer, this was the first time. As well as the first time I have even visited this forum, and my visit here was only due to that fact that UA told me that Flyer Talk supported their position and I should read up on it.

On the contrary, why would i know all the details? I don't frequent this forum, nor have i ever had an issue with the program. I simply fly all the time, and I am unaware of all the policies. In fact, the only way I knew about the 1k complimentary meal/drink per flight was through a flyer sitting next to me who mentioned it. Not all of us fliers frequent these forums.

schley

OP sorry this happened. I know how you feel to a lesser extent, as my account was locked for several months back 5 years ago. I never realized how important the United miles/upgrades/status was to me until I lost it for a while. I had over 500k miles and 12 certs I believe at the time in addition to 3 itineraries that I used instruments to upgrade which I wasn't allowed to earn miles on and instruments withdrawn if I recall correctly.

Don't want to relive this as I was under suspicion for something that was false, but scared the crap out of me and there is NO one to call as when the account goes to the investigation group or whatever they call it no one will transfer you to anyone other than to say your case is under review.

I got an email a couple months later saying my account was again active and thank you for my loyalty. I really do like united for the miles are pretty valuable and easy to earn, but most importantly I'm about 40k away from lifetime 1 million so that is something I look forward to.

I hope your situation works out and commend you for your honesty here. I would give it another shot in an email or typed letter you fed ex to them. In there mention that they can feel free to search where each of your upgrades you have gifted to people in your last 5 years or whatever and they were all family and friends that know you. Not sold. This is maybe your best tactic as it will prove this is a small mistake compared to your loyalty for years, we hope. Good luck.

tcp1

Your protection there is that this is a federal rule now - to offer 24 hour holds or cancellations. UA would be hard pressed to penalize someone for doing something specifically proscribed by federal statute.