N104UA

Or that UA gives GS a TON of benefits for their loyalty and if someone takes advantage of that goodwill UA will cut them off

aoumd

I know this expands beyond topic, but the above snippets of your post are the best sound byte description of how customer service in general has devolved into the current situation we have across all the major US airlines. Each of the US3 can make thousands of people never want to use them again every day, and not suffer because the other two majors are shooting away just as many people with similar policies on whatever drove a passenger away, so it's a net even trade and ignored.

eng3

How does this add up to "millons". Whether the original passeneger or someone else uses the miles, upgrades, ETC, it costs UA the same amount of money. Unless you consider every time a mile, upgrade, or ETC gets used a loss.

I think you over estimate the number of people who read these threads or are on Ft at all.

Yeah, its a great deterrent for the tiny population of UA flyers who actually read these threads.

It's not a deterrent at all for the majority of people who sell these certs, miles, upgrades, etc.

ermintrude

Yep UA's back end IT is in a class of it's own.

eng3

I don't see why he can't earn status on another airline even if it is in the *A. I remember a while back A3 and TK had pretty generous ways to earn *G. As long as you enter the *A FF number on your UA ticket, I would think that you would still get the same benefits. He is only banned from UA's MP program

I thought *A *G gives irrops priority

A MP# is not required to use the UA app. You just have to manually enter your info into the app. For example your PNR number and your last name for checkin.

I would think he could still get a UC membership since I don't see how its tied to the MP program. Yes, *G on *A would be better than UA *G in that respect. In any club, they offer a code you can type in for WIFI.

I would think that he would not get the benefits with the Chase credit card because it is tied to the MP number.

As for other consequences, as long as he isnt buying the cheapest ticket, I would assume IDB is not going to be a big issue. I assume trusted traveler is the same as a FF# in that you enter it once and it should stay.

Overall, I think the major losses are the Miles, CPU, GPU/RPU, E+ and the "being treated like a human being" factor of being 1K/GS.


The company typically will make the rule abundantly clear to their employees that they cannot sell the gift. In this case, UA is pointing to an obscure rule buried in the TOC.

I suppose the real reason I dislike UA's harsh treatment is that I wonder about the day UA will determine that I'm a liability and find some obscure rule I'm breaking that I am unaware of. For all I know, they have some algorithm which tracks how much money they earn from me versus how much value I have banked (miles, upgrades, etc) and actively target people. If I use a meal voucher on something that isnt technically food or switch seats or bring a gate-checked bag onto the plane anyways or get up when the seat belt sign is on, are they going to decide to close my account? Can anyone honestly say they have read and understood every word of the TOC? I've only barely understood how many of UA's policies work from spending hours reading this forum. I doubt 90% of the passengers understand these obscure policies. Most don't even understand the size of carry on bag they are allowed even with giant signs and notices.

tcp1

IMHO, Just yet another sign that the GS program has gotten too big and too out of control. If you need a security team to audit your own customers, maybe you need to look at your business practices.

I constantly see examples of GS members having zero vested financial interest in their own flying and membership, and increasingly unaware of the nuances and rules of dealing with United.

I'm not sure what United expects in the eBay era when they hand out endless certs and perks to folks who don't spend much of their own money on travel.

OTOH, as a self-paying 1K, I don't have a ton of sympathy for OP. A quick search here or even straight on Google would have led OP to the conclusion that this is a bad risk to take in exchange for a lousy hundred bucks or less.

Either way, righteous indignation is not the correct response. The only right path forward is "Oh ****, I didn't know, I am profoundly sorry and hope you can see it in your heart to reinstate, as I love United and want to continue flying with you - I am now fully aware that I screwed up big time, and will never even consider doing anything like this again."

Yelling about how you're a big man with high value and name-dropping Oscar will get OP precisely nowhere. Everyone's a "HVF" these days.

This isn't the same.

If UA started pulling accounts for minor unspecific issues, you'd bet there'd be more of an uproar here and more sympathy for OP.

OP attempted to sell a voucher with a cash value that has an explicit stipulation on barter or sale. It's not something deeply buried in the CoC. It's not some grey area even like the GS who got his MP account pulled last year for repeatedly buying and cancelling tickets for his wife so she could hang out with him at the airport (yes, this happened.)

While I do think UA's lifetime ban is overkill, it's not like OP can claim that this isn't spelled out anywhere. It certainly is in black and white on the instrument itself.

As others have noted, the overly harsh punishment seems to be to serve as a deterrent. However I agree that a simple statement from UA on the very things that trigger the MP Death Sentence should be explicitly spelled out.

eng3

Becareful with this. Although you have broken no rule, there have been reports of the passenger showing up to the airport only to find that their ticket has been cancelled. Sometimes stranding them in a far away country.

It seems that UA's security organization is like most security organizations that are empowered to do whatever they want with no accountability on themselves. They have no problem closing an account or cancelling a ticket with no notice or explanation. These types of people often feel they are always 100% right and you are there to serve them and become offended when you question them.
They seem to have no relation to customer service since they are not accountable to anyone.

So if you are giving away these to strangers its best to have something like a signed letter to prove you are giving it away and are not selling or bartering. The burden of proof is on you even though it should be on UA.

eng3

This is exactly the same. We on FT don't consider this a "minor unspecific issue" but I'd bet the majority of others believe that selling miles, instruments, etc's are "minor and unspecific". I've met many GS's that think this. I've even met ones that are unaware they of GPU/RPU's in general.

Your example of repeated buying and selling is called "churning" in the the travel world. Travel agencies use to do this to hold a ticket but UA started charging debit memos. The average traveler would have no idea that this is not allowed. What if the GS did something similar like buy the ticket once, SDC it every day to push it forward then cancel it at the end. Technically I don't think this would fit the definition of "Churning" but who knows what UA may do.

The point is that as long as UA keeps issuing MP death sentences for rules that are not widely know (or advertised) you never know when it will erode to "smaller" things as a new revenue tool.


Ignorance is no excuse for the law, but if your true intent is to deter, you have some responsibility to educate people of the law. As this currently stands, what they are doing is only a deterrent to the tiny population of UA FFs who read FT. The majority of other fliers are still completely unaware of the rule so nothing has changed. This is why I'm starting to think that they are targeting fliers who have large number of miles, upgrades, ETCs banked

MSPeconomist

NO, the AS T&C say that one may not sell, barter, etc. but do not say that the ATTEMPT to sell, barter, etc. is prohibited. They're different. A literal reading of the AS rule in bold says that it's OK if the sale isn't concluded.

I'm certainly not saying that I think it's OK to attempt to sell upgrade instruments, miles, award tickets, etc., but the AS rules don't explicitly prohibit the ATTEMPT to do so.

jsn55

I find all this flailing around regarding loyalty points/miles as almost comical. When you first get involved with a loyalty program, how 'bout if you just read the rules and abide by them? Why screw around trying to sell/barter/give them away and cry when you get caught? Why press the envelope over and over? [Moderator edit.] It's their program, their rules. Just pay attention and get on with it.

Lani1

Selling GPU / RPU / Miles on Ebay ? [Moderator edit] We all know the rules, if you break them - Maholo

bocastephen

The OP can just open a new account with a different address/country and use forms of payment that were never used on UA before. Just enter a different date of birth on the traveler profile, the TSA never actually verifies this information anyway, nor does UA. Keep the information new/different/fresh and it's unlikely to be detected.

If their spend stays the same, they will be 1k again, and later perhaps, GS.

Of course another option is getting *A and high status on a different airline with better redemptions terms, especially if the OP is already paying for business/first and doesn't need the upgrades...and that should result in almost unrestricted UC access while traveling on that account since *G receive club access (except Polaris).

username

Really? Isn't your DOB part of the Secure Flight (and also APIS) data?

tcp1

I agree completely that this needs to all be spelled out - and at someplace other than flyer talk.

The larger problem here is that the terms of MP make it clear that the miles aren't "yours" and can be taken away for any reason United feels fit. While I think this is lousy, I don't think United is going to change their tune on this any time soon.

OTOH, If United is truly targeting people that bank MP instruments versus spend them, that would be truly Smisek-level evil.. I prefer to use my miles to fly friends and family that don't travel as much as I do, which IS specifically permitted under MP - But I could see your point where United could prefer I not do such a thing.

So, you're suggesting OP getting around disregarding the rules of MP by even more flagrantly violating them? This is how we get even more scrutiny and audits on MP accounts, not less. Bad idea.

bocastephen

Yes, but it's not actively checked and verified. If one flies international, the only time it would be corrected is if an agent notices at check-in and manually updates it.

Before pre-check, during the "at-war" years many of us had with the TSA, we regularly entered false birthdates to mess with their database without any repercussion.