United CFO Rainey Implies Certain Elites were "Over Entitled".
May 23, 2012, 10:55 am
#1021
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: SFO and OAK
Programs: FAF, Hyatt <>, SPG PLT
Posts: 2,240
May 23, 2012, 11:05 am
#1022
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Växjö, SE/Washington, DC
Programs: AA ExPlat, UA 1K (2MM)
Posts: 1,159
I wish I could agree with you, I really do but between the cost cutting, all these buy ups and the under reported fact that there ARE Elites from AA and DL switching to UA, I would guess they don't notice any lower revenue. R seats on long hauls are harder then ever to get, we all agree on that. That means SOMEONE Zis in those seats! Full fare? Probably not but even if there are 10 GM's sitting there using miles and $$, taking the place of 1Ks and GS with upgrades, that flight will have made more revenue. I just don't buy that FT is a good indicator for what people will REALLY do or how they feel. It's just a small sampling
PLEASE, PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG. I HOPE I AM
PLEASE, PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG. I HOPE I AM
1- At DL a Silver member may get upgraded, at UA they can get upgraded if they pay for it or if they fly to Wyoming.
2- Since they aren't matching to 1K, any top tier elites coming over will soon get really sick of never getting an upgrade or seeing it sold out from under them (which may take a few months to realize).
3- EXP ends up in Economy and asks for his free snack and drink and gets laughed at and hit by the FAs walker as she goes by and never comes back.
4- DL/AA (Gold/Platinum) member gets only a 50% bonus on UA as a Gold and they realize this sucks and they leave.
5- They fly UA for 3 months and have so many mechanicals and miss so many meetings that their company tells them never again.
Obviously these are somewhat extremes, but if UA matches them to Platinum with the 75% it may not be that bad for them, especially since Platinum is just 75% 1K, the only differences are the 25% bonus reduction and the loss of 6 GPUs that most of us have to use as Regionals anyway if we can even do that.
What I'm finding out is the grass is greener at AA (we'll see if the bankruptcy causes them to stop watering the grass) but in the mean time it is.
On to financials, for those that think that fleeing 1Ks and GS members won't effect UA then I'd be very worried, because if UA can survive without the 1Ks and GS members that leave they may realize that there is really not a need for a programme because people will fly them anyway and that is when the gutting of the programme begins.
UA expects a $500M profit for Q2, I expect it to be about $200M and lag behind all of the competitors, but hey just my thoughts since all this happened just in time for people to begin leaving at peak travel times and I can say this, UA isn't getting a dime from me for the remaining part of the year.
May 23, 2012, 11:25 am
#1023
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Pikes Peak COS
Programs: 3 Month Delta Plat, UA PP 2.4mm, Marriott Lifetime Titanium, HH Lifetime Diamond, National EE
Posts: 426
Another point of view
While it is only natural for this forum to take our point of view, most of us are in business of some kind, right?
Well up to a few months ago, most of us 1K/GS/BIS-MM were pretty ok with what we had. However, the rest of the plane was not. Think about how many people you know, people that fly limited amounts, even Kettles (we can admit we know Kettles on FT?), that loathed United. Unless it was one of us, everyone hated United.
So maybe the management is going after this crowd. Part of the .....ing, and I'm sure that this isn't just for United, was everyone in back resented all of us getting perks. I do think this is a misguided attempt by COdbaUA to win that crowd, and get that market share from other carriers.
Two things I think prove this. 1) Obviously upgrades for people that have never flown in first before for a marginal fee. How many of them are going to tell their friends about the "new" United in a positive light? We ..... about meal choice, and they are thrilled to get a meal and a free cocktail. 2) and most annoying to me, is the mind numbing "You're In!" credit card commercials. They are trying to get the kettles and infrequent flyers to feel like they are now part of the exclusivity.
Pretty huge market to go after, and their bets are obviously that that market can more than make up the elites they are losing.
You know, it may or may not be long until the AA employees are not feeling so swell about their employers. Remember to all those who are saying UA will be in BK again... you are jumping to someone who already is in BK.
On another note, why I think Jeffy and his crew are idiots.... Why are they heavily marketing the "You're In!" Explorer card to all of us who are already in the RCC?
Just my 2 cents here, but I think the UA management is going after another, and much larger, audience than us.
Well up to a few months ago, most of us 1K/GS/BIS-MM were pretty ok with what we had. However, the rest of the plane was not. Think about how many people you know, people that fly limited amounts, even Kettles (we can admit we know Kettles on FT?), that loathed United. Unless it was one of us, everyone hated United.
So maybe the management is going after this crowd. Part of the .....ing, and I'm sure that this isn't just for United, was everyone in back resented all of us getting perks. I do think this is a misguided attempt by COdbaUA to win that crowd, and get that market share from other carriers.
Two things I think prove this. 1) Obviously upgrades for people that have never flown in first before for a marginal fee. How many of them are going to tell their friends about the "new" United in a positive light? We ..... about meal choice, and they are thrilled to get a meal and a free cocktail. 2) and most annoying to me, is the mind numbing "You're In!" credit card commercials. They are trying to get the kettles and infrequent flyers to feel like they are now part of the exclusivity.
Pretty huge market to go after, and their bets are obviously that that market can more than make up the elites they are losing.
You know, it may or may not be long until the AA employees are not feeling so swell about their employers. Remember to all those who are saying UA will be in BK again... you are jumping to someone who already is in BK.
On another note, why I think Jeffy and his crew are idiots.... Why are they heavily marketing the "You're In!" Explorer card to all of us who are already in the RCC?
Just my 2 cents here, but I think the UA management is going after another, and much larger, audience than us.
May 23, 2012, 11:35 am
#1024
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DEN
Programs: 2012 Plat-2013 Plat-2014 Silver-2015 GM
Posts: 818
One of the things not mentioned here is this could be a two fold hit on revenue. FF programs are a money making machine for the airlines, selling points to credit cards, hotels etc. A UA elite moves to AA will now use AA credit card thus UA not only loses the fare but also the FF program revenue. I would not want to be the UA credit card company right now.
May 23, 2012, 11:43 am
#1025
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Dubai / NYC
Programs: EK-IO, UA-1K2MM, ETIHAD-GOLD, SPG-PLAT LIFETIME, JUMEIRAH SERIUS GOLD
Posts: 5,220
I just read where you say United will be bankrupt within a year and now you say Smisek will be gone soon. Your pretending that your wishful thinking is based on some kind of facts. I'd like to know what those facts are. Just because you read in FT that a bunch of Elites are angry, you should not come to such strong statements and make THEM sound like fact.
None of us PMUA 1Ks are thrilled. The only people that seem happy are the PMCO 1Ks since everything is a step UP for them. They never had a 1K call center so don't miss it, they never got 6 SWU's a year, so if they can use them some of the time it's still a step up. In a nutshell they are used to not being treated very well so anything is a step up.
These PMCO 1Ks that like to call us whiners and relish the fact that the new airline is CO forget that the MAJORITY of passengers and Elites come from the UA side since UA was the larger carrier. YES, CO us in control but they can turn around one day and find they have bitten off more then they can chew.
May 23, 2012, 11:45 am
#1026
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Växjö, SE/Washington, DC
Programs: AA ExPlat, UA 1K (2MM)
Posts: 1,159
Well up to a few months ago, most of us 1K/GS/BIS-MM were pretty ok with what we had. However, the rest of the plane was not. Think about how many people you know, people that fly limited amounts, even Kettles (we can admit we know Kettles on FT?), that loathed United. Unless it was one of us, everyone hated United.
My friend mentioned to me that in the past UA board was not all .....ing about how terrible it was, I really had forgotten that, because it seems like such a long time ago when we could be consistently posting good experiences.
The UA facebook page is a mess, Kettles hate them too.
May 23, 2012, 11:49 am
#1027
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Dubai / NYC
Programs: EK-IO, UA-1K2MM, ETIHAD-GOLD, SPG-PLAT LIFETIME, JUMEIRAH SERIUS GOLD
Posts: 5,220
Here's my issue with the elites coming over to UA and why they won't stay.
1- At DL a Silver member may get upgraded, at UA they can get upgraded if they pay for it or if they fly to Wyoming.
That was my argument until I sat next to or ACCROSS the aisle from a silver on 2 flights last month. (MEX-IAH and LAX-DEN)
2- Since they aren't matching to 1K, any top tier elites coming over will soon get really sick of never getting an upgrade or seeing it sold out from under them (which may take a few months to realize).
Yes, they are now matching to 1K. I am as surprised as you but read 2 posts today from people doing a 1K match. Both top tier Delta
3- EXP ends up in Economy and asks for his free snack and drink and gets laughed at and hit by the FAs walker as she goes by and never comes back.
TO TRUE
4- DL/AA (Gold/Platinum) member gets only a 50% bonus on UA as a Gold and they realize this sucks and they leave.
ALSO TRUE
5- They fly UA for 3 months and have so many mechanicals and miss so many meetings that their company tells them never again.
I've seen the same thing with AA. It's hit or miss and depends on market
Obviously these are somewhat extremes, but if UA matches them to Platinum with the 75% it may not be that bad for them, especially since Platinum is just 75% 1K, the only differences are the 25% bonus reduction and the loss of 6 GPUs that most of us have to use as Regionals anyway if we can even do that.
What I'm finding out is the grass is greener at AA (we'll see if the bankruptcy causes them to stop watering the grass) but in the mean time it is.
On to financials, for those that think that fleeing 1Ks and GS members won't effect UA then I'd be very worried, because if UA can survive without the 1Ks and GS members that leave they may realize that there is really not a need for a programme because people will fly them anyway and that is when the gutting of the programme begins.
UA expects a $500M profit for Q2, I expect it to be about $200M and lag behind all of the competitors, but hey just my thoughts since all this happened just in time for people to begin leaving at peak travel times and I can say this, UA isn't getting a dime from me for the remaining part of the year.
1- At DL a Silver member may get upgraded, at UA they can get upgraded if they pay for it or if they fly to Wyoming.
That was my argument until I sat next to or ACCROSS the aisle from a silver on 2 flights last month. (MEX-IAH and LAX-DEN)
2- Since they aren't matching to 1K, any top tier elites coming over will soon get really sick of never getting an upgrade or seeing it sold out from under them (which may take a few months to realize).
Yes, they are now matching to 1K. I am as surprised as you but read 2 posts today from people doing a 1K match. Both top tier Delta
3- EXP ends up in Economy and asks for his free snack and drink and gets laughed at and hit by the FAs walker as she goes by and never comes back.
TO TRUE
4- DL/AA (Gold/Platinum) member gets only a 50% bonus on UA as a Gold and they realize this sucks and they leave.
ALSO TRUE
5- They fly UA for 3 months and have so many mechanicals and miss so many meetings that their company tells them never again.
I've seen the same thing with AA. It's hit or miss and depends on market
Obviously these are somewhat extremes, but if UA matches them to Platinum with the 75% it may not be that bad for them, especially since Platinum is just 75% 1K, the only differences are the 25% bonus reduction and the loss of 6 GPUs that most of us have to use as Regionals anyway if we can even do that.
What I'm finding out is the grass is greener at AA (we'll see if the bankruptcy causes them to stop watering the grass) but in the mean time it is.
On to financials, for those that think that fleeing 1Ks and GS members won't effect UA then I'd be very worried, because if UA can survive without the 1Ks and GS members that leave they may realize that there is really not a need for a programme because people will fly them anyway and that is when the gutting of the programme begins.
UA expects a $500M profit for Q2, I expect it to be about $200M and lag behind all of the competitors, but hey just my thoughts since all this happened just in time for people to begin leaving at peak travel times and I can say this, UA isn't getting a dime from me for the remaining part of the year.
May 23, 2012, 11:50 am
#1028
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 57,604
And I wouldn't have a problem with that--hey, if they want to offer discounted F (or Y/B/M) fares at the last minute, fine and dandy--if the buy-ups were offered consistently to elites.
What annoys me is when my no-status friend on the same fare is offered a ToD (say, $89 on LAS-ORD), and I'm offered the full buy-up (say, $389), as we check in side-by-side at two kiosks. Or when at OLCI, my wife gets an offer to buy up, and I don't get one at all.
What annoys me is when my no-status friend on the same fare is offered a ToD (say, $89 on LAS-ORD), and I'm offered the full buy-up (say, $389), as we check in side-by-side at two kiosks. Or when at OLCI, my wife gets an offer to buy up, and I don't get one at all.
May 23, 2012, 11:51 am
#1029
Moderator, Omni, Omni/PR, Omni/Games, FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Between DCA and IAD
Programs: UA 1K MM; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 67,138
So maybe the management is going after this crowd. Part of the .....ing, and I'm sure that this isn't just for United, was everyone in back resented all of us getting perks. I do think this is a misguided attempt by COdbaUA to win that crowd, and get that market share from other carriers.
I recall a guy with a child who, as he thought he'd get to board first, pushed his way past the GS and 1K waiting to board, and actually turned and said, "Hah, you guys have to wait for ME to board for a change." I almost gave the GA a high-five when she turned him away and said, "We don't pre-board passengers with children; please step aside and wait until we call your group."
Likewise all the pax who vocally sneer at the premium check-in and security lines.
My thought to all of them: you only have to go through this once or twice a year. I go through it 70+ times; maybe you wouldn't be so resentful of my benefits if you actually had to deal with the hassles of travel on a regular basis!
Certainly UA is not pricing themselves (nor can they price themselves) so as to always be the first choice in Kayak, Expedia, Orbitz, Travelocity, etc., nor do any of their actions significantly encourage these pax to return to UA for their next purchase--and even if they did, these pax don't exactly make frequent purchases!
May 23, 2012, 11:55 am
#1030
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Växjö, SE/Washington, DC
Programs: AA ExPlat, UA 1K (2MM)
Posts: 1,159
Here's my issue with the elites coming over to UA and why they won't stay.
1- At DL a Silver member may get upgraded, at UA they can get upgraded if they pay for it or if they fly to Wyoming.
2- Since they aren't matching to 1K, any top tier elites coming over will soon get really sick of never getting an upgrade or seeing it sold out from under them (which may take a few months to realize).
3- EXP ends up in Economy and asks for his free snack and drink and gets laughed at and hit by the FAs walker as she goes by and never comes back.
4- DL/AA (Gold/Platinum) member gets only a 50% bonus on UA as a Gold and they realize this sucks and they leave.
5- They fly UA for 3 months and have so many mechanicals and miss so many meetings that their company tells them never again.
Obviously these are somewhat extremes, but if UA matches them to Platinum with the 75% it may not be that bad for them, especially since Platinum is just 75% 1K, the only differences are the 25% bonus reduction and the loss of 6 GPUs that most of us have to use as Regionals anyway if we can even do that.
What I'm finding out is the grass is greener at AA (we'll see if the bankruptcy causes them to stop watering the grass) but in the mean time it is.
On to financials, for those that think that fleeing 1Ks and GS members won't effect UA then I'd be very worried, because if UA can survive without the 1Ks and GS members that leave they may realize that there is really not a need for a programme because people will fly them anyway and that is when the gutting of the programme begins.
UA expects a $500M profit for Q2, I expect it to be about $200M and lag behind all of the competitors, but hey just my thoughts since all this happened just in time for people to begin leaving at peak travel times and I can say this, UA isn't getting a dime from me for the remaining part of the year.
1- At DL a Silver member may get upgraded, at UA they can get upgraded if they pay for it or if they fly to Wyoming.
2- Since they aren't matching to 1K, any top tier elites coming over will soon get really sick of never getting an upgrade or seeing it sold out from under them (which may take a few months to realize).
3- EXP ends up in Economy and asks for his free snack and drink and gets laughed at and hit by the FAs walker as she goes by and never comes back.
4- DL/AA (Gold/Platinum) member gets only a 50% bonus on UA as a Gold and they realize this sucks and they leave.
5- They fly UA for 3 months and have so many mechanicals and miss so many meetings that their company tells them never again.
Obviously these are somewhat extremes, but if UA matches them to Platinum with the 75% it may not be that bad for them, especially since Platinum is just 75% 1K, the only differences are the 25% bonus reduction and the loss of 6 GPUs that most of us have to use as Regionals anyway if we can even do that.
What I'm finding out is the grass is greener at AA (we'll see if the bankruptcy causes them to stop watering the grass) but in the mean time it is.
On to financials, for those that think that fleeing 1Ks and GS members won't effect UA then I'd be very worried, because if UA can survive without the 1Ks and GS members that leave they may realize that there is really not a need for a programme because people will fly them anyway and that is when the gutting of the programme begins.
UA expects a $500M profit for Q2, I expect it to be about $200M and lag behind all of the competitors, but hey just my thoughts since all this happened just in time for people to begin leaving at peak travel times and I can say this, UA isn't getting a dime from me for the remaining part of the year.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...les-short.html
May 23, 2012, 12:01 pm
#1031
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: ORF
Posts: 1,740
All you have to do is look at Facebook to see the Loathing.
My friend mentioned to me that in the past UA board was not all .....ing about how terrible it was, I really had forgotten that, because it seems like such a long time ago when we could be consistently posting good experiences.
The UA facebook page is a mess, Kettles hate them too.
My friend mentioned to me that in the past UA board was not all .....ing about how terrible it was, I really had forgotten that, because it seems like such a long time ago when we could be consistently posting good experiences.
The UA facebook page is a mess, Kettles hate them too.
May 23, 2012, 12:12 pm
#1032
Moderator, Omni, Omni/PR, Omni/Games, FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Between DCA and IAD
Programs: UA 1K MM; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 67,138
I recall when I last flew US frequently (basically before PMUA eliminated the 500-mile minimums on US), no one seemed to like US much at all. And they did a lot of what UA is trying to do now: TOD upgrades (though US hawked them aggressively at the gate), nickel-and-diming for basic amenities in Y, pushing credit card sales throughout the flight, etc. Being able to buy up to F on the cheap didn't endear US to Ma or Pa Kettle from what I could tell; the horrid CS, call center, and inflight experiences did drive those pax away in droves, though.
May 23, 2012, 12:12 pm
#1033
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Pikes Peak COS
Programs: 3 Month Delta Plat, UA PP 2.4mm, Marriott Lifetime Titanium, HH Lifetime Diamond, National EE
Posts: 426
That's my point, everyone hates United. If you can turn that around, and maybe get 1% of your audience to feel like they are in the exclusive club, that's a whole lot of revenue. many people are still buying tickets on WN, because they love the experience of being equal to anyone else, and they perceive them to be lower in cost.
In this day and age where the infrequent flyer primarily buys on price alone, if you can get that crowd to pay a few bucks more and fill the planes, well maybe you have the basis for a business plan. I hate it, but that doesn't mean it won't fly, no pun intended!
In this day and age where the infrequent flyer primarily buys on price alone, if you can get that crowd to pay a few bucks more and fill the planes, well maybe you have the basis for a business plan. I hate it, but that doesn't mean it won't fly, no pun intended!
May 23, 2012, 12:19 pm
#1034
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Chicago, IL
Programs: AAdvantage, MileagePlus(ick)
Posts: 296
Bottom line, even taking into account that except the 2 points above I pointed out you were wrong, for the most part you are correct. But the same can be said for how many UA elites will STICK with a move to AA. After a few rides on an MD80 and a few times in E w no E+ I would head back to the devil I know
Main Cabin ExtrAA is coming.
And I'm going to be giving up my MP Select 3-2-1 Visa for an AA Visa, 90% Eagle flying.....I'm going to attempt to embrace the regional jets, no IFE for that single A aisle in order to get (for now) stable IT systems, friendlier, less burnt out employees, noticeably more interactive CSRs, more honest, straight forward policies and a management team that is not full of rampant liars and coniving lawyers (at least not to our faces).
It will be "different" but I think worth it. My first AA/AE trip is in August.
May 23, 2012, 12:21 pm
#1035
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 5,825
