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-   -   Local lockdowns in the UK (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/u-k-ireland/2025295-local-lockdowns-uk.html)

corporate-wage-slave Nov 3, 2020 11:47 am


Originally Posted by Dan1113 (Post 32792305)
From my reading of it, nothing would prevent someone from Scotland to travel to Manchester or Newcastle and travel from there (or connect via LHR), provided that the corridors system and scotgov don't change, right? (I have no such plans and am working right up to Christmas, so I am just curious.)

When you get to England, your travel across England or England's airspace would not be allowed if it was for leisure purposes. So yes you can travel to Manchester or Newcastle, but for education or work related travel, and a few other exceptions.

13901 Nov 3, 2020 12:01 pm


Originally Posted by KARFA (Post 32792068)
On my quick read through whilst sat on the bus it seems:



- movement restrictions like March, so you cannot leave home without reasonable excuse, there is a non-exhaustive list of things which are considered reasonable excuse
- these include the obvious like going to buy food or going to any business which is allowed to be open, taking medical help
- going to a remembrance service is allowed
- Go to work where reasonably necessary and where it’s not reasonably possible for you to work at home
- Returning home is ok if you were on holiday before the regulations come into force
- Obvious restrictions on gatherings
- Closure of places providing food and drink for consumption on premises

Nothing specific on international travel (it’s possible this may be covered in amendments to the SI concerning travel corridors). However, if you leave home for the purposes of going on holiday (Regardless of whether you go abroad or not) you will have committed an offence since this is not likely to be deemed a reasonable excuse.

In a sense we are back to where we were in March, albeit the reasons you can leave home are a bit broader now.

So as I'm reading it - and correct me if I'm wrong - Mr. Brown living in Oxford can't travel to Heathrow and catch a plane to, say, Madeira for a bit of holidays but Mr Da Souza from Madeira can catch a plane and come to Heathrow and, if I'm not mistaken, go about his business straight away as there's no 14-day quarantine. Isn't it a bit counterintuitive? I thought the idea - however questionable - was to stop infection from coming in.

KARFA Nov 3, 2020 12:07 pm

The purpose of those two trips differs tho. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Lynyrd Nov 3, 2020 12:07 pm

I am interested in the enforcement of this legislation. If a Border Force agent asks someone in an airport for the purpose of their travel I think it is perfectly reasonable not to answer. I have skim read the legislation on my phone and will read it properly tonight but is there a power for a BF agent/cop to refuse boarding to a passenger?

Should a police officer or BF agent ask a passenger the reason for them being outside their home address, the person is within their rights to not answer the question. The officer would require suspicion of an offence to arrest them and as far as I can see there is no power of search of property to find the reason. I cannot see the officer having grounds to arrest. I have been a police sergeant for 16 years (albeit I have not worked at the airport so airport specific legislation is not my speciality) and I would not authorise the detention of a person at a police station if an officer brought a person before me in such circumstances. This seems to be a summary only non recordable offence. Whilst I would not expect the officer to have obtained all evidence to prove the offence at the roadside/airport terminal, I would not be satisfied of a need to detain the individual to obtain evidence by questioning unless there was an admission under caution or some other evidence found that the person was outside of their home address for an unlawful purpose.

I understand the spirit of the legislation is to keep people at home, but it seems almost impossible to further a prosecution without an admission. I would not usually advise anyone to make no comment to the police, but this does seem a circumstance where speaking to the officer regarding the circumstances of your journey would be unwise.

KARFA Nov 3, 2020 12:09 pm

I think you need to consider other legislation. Not to answer question by police or BF in an airport will make sure you end up being detained. Also as you are aware based on the current caution, conclusion can be drawn from your failure to answer.

if you really are travelling in breach of the regulations, keeping silent and refusing to answer questions will at best not make anything better, and at worst add to your problems.

edit: you will also see that someone can be directed to return to the place where they are living if they are considered to be in contravention of the requirement to stay home unless they have a reasonable excuse. Failure to comply with the instruction or obstruction can lead to a fixed penalty notice. Just because you don’t answer doesn’t mean the officer can’t draw conclusions or reach a consideration that you are in breach.

corporate-wage-slave Nov 3, 2020 12:26 pm

And just to add an anecdote, the veracity of which I can't double-check, a lady well into her 70s arrived into the UK a few days ago, from Ibiza, claiming she was exempt due to being a "marine biologist". BF accompanied her down to baggage reclaim, where her copious beachware outfits and lack of work material was duly noted, before being handed over to the Met Police. She isn't being processed under the Fixed Penalty Notice scheme, but under under the general legislation relating to making a false statement / misrepresentation.

I suspect that was somewhat exceptional, and I've no doubt that you can get away with it. A bit like speeding, perhaps, but getting caught is rarely a pleasant experience.

tjcxx Nov 3, 2020 12:35 pm

QUOTE want2fly4less
Two Questions pop-up for me, which might be a cost-effective way to leave the UK:

-Can your linked household be in another country than in the UK? This would then provide a reasonable excuse.
- Based on the wording you are allowed to collect food and drink from a business. Must this business be in the UK or can I just order a fantastic Pizza for collection from my favorite Pizza Place in Italy for collection? QUOTE


Your second one is frivolous, as you no doubt intended. But I think the first can definitely be reasonable. I have a ticket to the U.S. in late November and that is going to be my reasonable excuse for leaving the house.

Reetmafreen Nov 3, 2020 12:42 pm

Can someone explain the definition of local area as to how relates to not traveling out of your local area. Out of town? Out of the county? Distance limited? Something else?

Would someone from Bedfordshire (not Luton) be able to pick me up from Heathrow during the lockdown? I live in the States and the purpose of my visit would be to repatriate my late wife’s remains and finally lay her to rest. I believe that funerals/memorials are a valid reason for travel. I’m fully aware that I need to self isolate for 14 days upon my arrival. I would prefer not to use public transport to get to the household where I plan to isolate (and then form a bubble as I will be in the country for about 7 weeks) so I was curious if someone from that household would be allowed to travel to bring me back from the airport?

want2fly4less Nov 3, 2020 12:42 pm


Originally Posted by tjcxx (Post 32792499)
QUOTE want2fly4less
Two Questions pop-up for me, which might be a cost-effective way to leave the UK:

-Can your linked household be in another country than in the UK? This would then provide a reasonable excuse.
- Based on the wording you are allowed to collect food and drink from a business. Must this business be in the UK or can I just order a fantastic Pizza for collection from my favorite Pizza Place in Italy for collection? QUOTE


Your second one is frivolous, as you no doubt intended. But I think the first can definitely be reasonable. I have a ticket to the U.S. in late November and that is going to be my reasonable excuse for leaving the house.

My second one was tongue in cheek since it is just taking the wording of the SI literally into account, but not the intention...

But I'm sure English lawyers know more about interpreting English law than me...

KARFA Nov 3, 2020 12:46 pm


Originally Posted by Reetmafreen (Post 32792523)
Can someone explain the definition of local area as to how relates to not traveling out of your local area. Out of town? Out of the county? Distance limited? Something else?

Would someone from Bedfordshire (not Luton) be able to pick me up from Heathrow during the lockdown? I live in the States and the purpose of my visit would be to repatriate my late wife’s remains and finally lay her to rest. I believe that funerals/memorials are a valid reason for travel. I’m fully aware that I need to self isolate for 14 days upon my arrival. I would prefer not to use public transport to get to the household where I plan to isolate (and then form a bubble as I will be in the country for about 7 weeks) so I was curious if someone from that household would be allowed to travel to bring me back from the airport?

I assume this is in the guidance? there is no mention of local areas in the law.

in terms of someone picking you up at LHR it doesn’t neatly fit in the specific exemptions listed, but it arguably the purpose fits within the broader test of being a reasonable excuse.

tjcxx Nov 3, 2020 12:51 pm


Originally Posted by Reetmafreen (Post 32792523)
Can someone explain the definition of local area as to how relates to not traveling out of your local area. Out of town? Out of the county? Distance limited? Something else?

Would someone from Bedfordshire (not Luton) be able to pick me up from Heathrow during the lockdown? I live in the States and the purpose of my visit would be to repatriate my late wife’s remains and finally lay her to rest. I believe that funerals/memorials are a valid reason for travel. I’m fully aware that I need to self isolate for 14 days upon my arrival. I would prefer not to use public transport to get to the household where I plan to isolate (and then form a bubble as I will be in the country for about 7 weeks) so I was curious if someone from that household would be allowed to travel to bring me back from the airport?

I think the airport pick-up can be regarded as a reasonable excuse, so long as the person being picked up has a reasonable excuse for being out and about. The person doing the pick-up has an excuse in that it is safer to avoid public transport. It may not be explicit in the regulations but the list of excuses in the regulations is not exhaustive.

For example in the first lock-in I took my son to Heathrow. He is a seafarer and was going to join his ship in Spain having taken unpaid leave for the first part of the lock-in.

Dan1113 Nov 3, 2020 1:00 pm


Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave (Post 32792383)
When you get to England, your travel across England or England's airspace would not be allowed if it was for leisure purposes. So yes you can travel to Manchester or Newcastle, but for education or work related travel, and a few other exceptions.

I did notice this in the SI. But this would have a bigger implication than just Scottish connecting flights at LHR. So a flight from Amsterdam to Toronto full of possible tourists would be aiding people in breaking the law because it flies over English airspace on the way?

flyslow Nov 3, 2020 2:11 pm

Where does that leave transit pax? Say someone from Sweden (no self isolation requirement ATM) flies to STN and has onward flight to Canaries same day from LTN? Or has to overnight in STN?
Coming back from Canaries to Sweden via London seems to be OK, as they are returning home, but arriving from Sweden and flying onward to holiday destination they would be breaking the law?

corporate-wage-slave Nov 3, 2020 2:21 pm


Originally Posted by tjcxx (Post 32792551)
The person doing the pick-up has an excuse in that it is safer to avoid public transport.

Off topic, but it's not. We have recorded vastly more infections from people in separate households sharing cars than using public transport. But your logic relating to the reasonable excuse I certainly agree with.

corporate-wage-slave Nov 3, 2020 2:24 pm


Originally Posted by Dan1113 (Post 32792575)
I did notice this in the SI. But this would have a bigger implication than just Scottish connecting flights at LHR. So a flight from Amsterdam to Toronto full of possible tourists would be aiding people in breaking the law because it flies over English airspace on the way?

I suspect that is under reasonable excuse, but a reality check may also be worthwhile.


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