Originally Posted by psychopompos
(Post 32757610)
My interpretation of the apparent spirit of the legislation is that it's more concerned with short/casual/social mixing, but then again, I don't have much legislation interpretation training.
This incidentally also explains the support bubble concept - if someone lives alone then in theory they are at a lower risk of spreading the virus, compared to a large multi-generational household. Hence adding them to another household isn't such a great risk as two larger households inter-mixing. |
Does your relative live alone? If so could you not form a linked household? I can’t see anything to state that the linked household must be in the United Kingdom.
In practice irrespective of the technicalities of the legislation, the police will deem this reasonable if for whatever reason they became involved. |
Originally Posted by Lynyrd
(Post 32758318)
Does your relative live alone? If so could you not form a linked household? I can’t see anything to state that the linked household must be in the United Kingdom.
In practice irrespective of the technicalities of the legislation, the police will deem this reasonable if for whatever reason they became involved. |
I just wanted to follow up on this discussion about households and whether a relative staying with other family members in a Tier 2 (High) area is permitted or not.
There doesn't seem to be a definition of "household" for the purposes of The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Local COVID-19 Alert Level) (High) (England) Regulations 2020 and when you look at those regulations in conjunction with The Health Protection (Coronavirus, International Travel) (England) Regulations 2020 then there seems to be a glaring inconsistency. If I travel to the UK and I am not exempt from the requirement to self-isolate for 14 days then I am explicitly allowed to stay with family or friends, even if I don't ordinarily live with them. However, if I travel to the UK and I am exempt from needing to self-isolate then am I able to stay with friends or family? From what I have read, the answer seems to be no, but I can't find any definitive guidance for England. I'm assuming that the International Travel regulations would need to be read / interpreted in conjunction with the Local Alert Level regulations? There is guidance for Wales where it's stated that "A household means a group of people living in the same home. A household can be one person living on their own, flatmates, or a family living in the same home. What’s important is that it’s always the same people and the same home." (https://gov.wales/guidance-extended-...ds-coronavirus). The reason I am asking is that I have been advised my by employer that they believe that I am exempt from the need to self-isolate and will therefore be travelling to the UK in the near future. I clearly would like to see family while in the UK and by that I mean actually stay with them as opposed to having a cup of tea in the back garden while we all huddle under umbrellas! If that's what we need to do then that's what we'll do but it would be nice to be able to sit indoors! |
Originally Posted by psychopompos
(Post 32758779)
Indeed, this was already suggested by c-w-s and is probably the line of reasoning that would be used if we collectively decide that this trip is worth the trouble for everyone involved.
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Originally Posted by Geordie405
(Post 32759005)
The reason I am asking is that I have been advised my by employer that they believe that I am exempt from the need to self-isolate and will therefore be travelling to the UK in the near future. I clearly would like to see family while in the UK and by that I mean actually stay with them as opposed to having a cup of tea in the back garden while we all huddle under umbrellas! If that's what we need to do then that's what we'll do but it would be nice to be able to sit indoors!
If you're just coming for a few days, I think you'd struggle to argue you were joining their household. So, for just a few days you'd count as a visitor for the relevant rules. In some areas (eg currently tier 1) you can stay in smaller households under the rule of 6. In tier 2+ you won't currently be able to do a short stay |
Originally Posted by Geordie405
(Post 32759005)
The reason I am asking is that I have been advised my by employer that they believe that I am exempt from the need to self-isolate and will therefore be travelling to the UK in the near future. I clearly would like to see family while in the UK and by that I mean actually stay with them as opposed to having a cup of tea in the back garden while we all huddle under umbrellas! If that's what we need to do then that's what we'll do but it would be nice to be able to sit indoors!
The good news is that with the North East going into Tier 2 there was a small relaxation that now allows for outdoors contact in certain circumstances, which wasn't allowed previously. On the other hand HMG is watching the North East, where some of the figures are falling. If they go up again then the NE will go into Tier 3. |
Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave
(Post 32760072)
Enforcement is another matter, I guess that depends on how many twitching net curtains there are in the neighbourhood.
The good news is that with the North East going into Tier 2 there was a small relaxation that now allows for outdoors contact in certain circumstances, which wasn't allowed previously. On the other hand HMG is watching the North East, where some of the figures are falling. If they go up again then the NE will go into Tier 3. I am closely watching the situation in the north east. My brother who lives in Gateshead was saying that Gateshead's figures were down 9.6% over the last week but Newcastle's continues to rise and that's the concern. Thanks for checking and for the thoughts. I agree totally about the intent (aka the "mischief rule" of statutory interpretation) so it will be outdoors contact if I do come over! |
Northern Ireland
There appear to be more than a dozen SI’s and amendments covering the latest Coronavirus regulations in Northern Ireland.
https://www.health-ni.gov.uk/publica...n-ireland-2020 The regulations were introduced on 16 October 2020 and will be in place for four weeks. Here is a chart summarising the key points. For more details check the guidance here. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...3ad405052.jpeg |
Wales : National coronavirus firebreak
The fire-break will start at 6pm on Friday 23 October and end on Monday 9 November. It will apply to everyone living in Wales and will replace the local restrictions which are in force in some parts of the country.
See post 89 for the relevant SI. https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/32765010-post89.html |
Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave
(Post 32760072)
Again, it isn't so much the wording of assorted SI, it's the intent, it's the desire to do the right thing.
The point is that, the way English justice works, is that laws are developed slowly and carefully, and the courts generally try to interpret the law according to its intent. These laws have been developed quickly and clumsily and there are many instances where the intent and the letter are polar opposites. The longer this carries on, the more either a) the law will be disregarded or b) it will be enforced in a draconian way. Either outcome is very bad for society generally. |
Around here, it seems that there is a revolt planned against these new Tier 3 regulations. Many bars saying they will stay open. Let's see if the police or local authorities take any action.
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Once a bar owner gets told that they will lose their licence or they are closed on health grounds with a non-recommendation when next they come to renew their licence that attitude may change.
More interestingly, they would have no customers if the customers were following the orders from on high! It may give an indication of why things have reached that stage on your area. |
To be replaced by the national restrictions for Wales with effect from 9 November as detailed in post 263
Just to add to post 85, the relevant law for the Wales "fire break" The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 3) (Wales) Regulations 2020 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/wsi/2.../contents/made SI 2020/1149 This replaces all the previous ones noted in posts 14 & 70. |
Originally Posted by DYKWIA
(Post 32764749)
Around here, it seems that there is a revolt planned against these new Tier 3 regulations. Many bars saying they will stay open. Let's see if the police or local authorities take any action.
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