Employers will care when the employees smarten up and quit. When employers can't find employees who will work for slave wages then they will care and they will raise wages. Change is hard, but it still needs to happen.

I always laugh at these outragous "suggestions" from those inside the industry.

You actually think we should pay you EXTRA MONEY for POOR SERVICE???

Where is that "rolling on the floor busting a gut laughing" emoticon when you need it. How ridiculous.



Here is a "suggestion" of a more realistic tipping structure:

Service is terrible = 0% and talk with a manager and tell him you expect him to comp the meal.
Service is poor = 0% and talk to the manager and tell him you are an unhappy customer who may not be back. If he argues with you tell him all of the friends you will tell about your experience.

Service is average =0%

Service is good = 0-5%
Service is outstanding = 5-10%


That will encourage good service and also encourage bad workers to exit the business. If enough managers get the speech they will also be encouraged to address the industry wide problems of low pay and poor service.

I avoid tipping by eating out in my own country very little (USA). I'm thinking of Turkey for the next trip, and I understand that 10% is all that's required there. I avoid any motel or hotel with bellboys. SE Asia has totally spoiled me (I only tip for foot massage there).

So you think it's OK to make the employees suffer for your principles, just because you're doing it ostensibly on their behalf, so they aren't working for "slave wages?"

I would also love an answer to my other question: if tipping were banned but prices were raised 15-20%, would you be happy even though you'd be paying exactly the same amount? If so, why?

I'm a bit confused. Should we assume that your name is Simples...? Or is it used as a descriptive adjective?

If employees suffer it is due to their own decision to work at a job where part of their pay is optional. Not my problem.

If prices were higher I would base on my decision to use their services on quality of food and the quality of the service, all the while knowing exactly what I am getting into.

I'm with you on this, but I am a little more lenient - I am fine with tipping a bit more for good or excellent service, but agree totally that there is no way I am tipping 10% for poor service. And I have worked in the bar and restaurant industry. By giving the server money for poor service (and I have said above, that doesn't include quality of the food, just the service from the server) you are telling them that is ok - if anyone else underperforms at work, delivers poor product, do the employers give them a pat on the back and a big bonus - not anywhere I have worked! If they don't like losing 8%, then get with the program and do a better job, it isn't rocket science to come to that conclusion.

As I have said before, if it is simple for me to make a complaint to management, I will. But I also know how busy places can be e.g. on Saturday nights, and I am not going to make my experience even worse by spending a large amount of additional time waiting for a manager. In those scenarios, a 0% tip speaks volumes. Incidently, if I do tell the manager that the server's performance is terrible, the manager says 'we are very sorry, this $6 glass of wine is on the house' should I then leave my server a tip? My assumption is that the $6 glass comes out of their tips / wage, as punishment for being sucky. Why on earth would I then essentially pay for that wine, and more, given I have still had terrible service?

I don't know if you aren't from America and therefore do not understand the wage/tip structure in place or you are from America (I hope not) and are just a huge tightwad.

Getting 10% on a tab is barely making any money by the time you figure out taxes, tip outs and your incredibly low hourly wage. Getting 5% is losing money.

I also do not understand your logic about how a 5-10% encourages good service and causes bad workers to leave. The opposite will actually happen. If everyone had your ideology, then being a waiter would become an unlivable profession, and everyone that could get a better job would leave. So there goes the young college age workforce out of your industry. The only people left will be those that have little to no other career prospects; Convicted felons, people with perhaps a high school diploma or drop outs etc. Do you think service would actually improve under those conditions?

As for enough managers getting the speech things will change... well, honestly I don't see anyone could be that naive.

First, lots of waitstaff would be fired before that would happen. Then the waitstaff that actually got to keep their job would have to suffer incredibly low wages for years until federal laws are passed to mandate it. A managers job is to make sure the restaurant is profitable. They aren't going to increase their payroll by thousands of dollars every month unless they absolutely have to because they know that the spike in food prices will drive people away especially in this economy.

If you don't like the system fine, but then don't take advantage of it either. There are plenty of options when it comes to eating; you can cook your own food, order fast food, or get something to go. By not tipping you are only hurting innocent hardworking waitstaff trying to make an honest living.

Not really, most waiters will just assume that you are a tightwad jerk.

If you really want to send a message then it is better to undertip. Leaving a dollar bill for example with a note that service was bad, is much more likely to get across than not tipping at all.

Emma, I am curious you said you actually worked in the bar/restaurant industry do you mind telling me when, where and what position that you had.

I think you might be giving servers too little credit - they will know exactly why you have not tipped, I wouldn't sit there nodding politely throughout the meal, I would have said something to them long before it got that far. I know a friend of mine who will write "0 - bad service" on the tip line of a credit card slip, but I will have said something long before then to the server. Some just don't give a moneky's and frankly, I am not about to reward that, even with a dollar.

I was in the industry in the UK - where pretty much every server and bartender makes far less total than their America counterparts. Bar tender and assistant restaurant manager were my two main industry positions but I also waited tables, cooked in the restaurant, and other assorted dogsbody jobs!

I guess my answer is 'sort of'. In the UK tipping is not the norm, and all staff (kitchen, bus boys, servers, bartenders) are paid a wage (normally minimum wage given the high volume of staff to a lower number of jobs) The difference between the current wage paid in the US in some states (around the $2 mark) and the minimum wage for servers [am I right in thinking kitchen staff etc are already entitled to minimum wage most places?] ( $7.25 although I know some states are higher, some lower) would not justify a 15-20% increase on the menu prices across the board on a mid-level restaurant menu. So an increase of, say, 5% that would cover the difference between the sub-wage at the moment and the minimum wage would be reasonable. That is what UK restaurants do without making the conscious calculation, full staff wages are part of the overhead so taken into account on the pricing.

A lot of these posts concern tipping at restaurants, and I myself do follow the "when in Rome" philosophy". I know the system, how much to tip. At at a meal, since I am sitting, there is plenty of time to figure out the appropriate amount.

Other situations, I definitely try to avoid tipping. The problem I have when traveling (in the US) is that I am not sure what to tip, when, and so forth. I try to avoid it by avoiding those "services". It is true I dislike the whole system, but since that is how it is, I do tip. Since I dislike the system, I do as other have stated on this thread- carry my own luggage, avoid valets, etc.

I know I can get this information (how much to tip) beforehand, and I can check on line and all that, but it is still confusing. Going from the airport to the hotel- who to tip, how much, what if my bag is heavy- am I supposed to tip more, if so, how much (and what is "heavy"?) Do I tip the guy who brings me to the room, the housekeeping staff? Should the check-in staff get a tip, or would that be seen as bribery? It is actually stressful for me. Then I think too- what if I do not have enough bills? Will they think I "stiffed" them for not giving a tip?

One time, I had a knee problem that caused walking difficulty through the airport. I wanted to get a wheelchair, or ride on one of those big "golf carts" they have in the US (I do not know what they are called). My sister said I should tip them. I said I thought it was a service. She said it was, but that they should be tipped.

I was relieved to get back to Japan, where the FA actually asked, before landing, if I needed a wheelchair at the arrival gate. The taxi was metered, and no worries about tipping there. I checked into a hotel on that trip (in Japan), and I actually felt I was being provided a service as I was accompanied to the room and did not have to worry about whether or not to tip. I did not have to worry about "good service" or "bad service" and how much that would be worth. (In fact, it always has been good service)

So, to avoid tipping, I do minimize trips to the US, or while there, taking care of myself and my things (luggage, car, etc) by myself. Just one thing: I never tip for walk-up counter service- the coffee shops and fast-food type places that have no wait staff. That I really do not get.

To be fair Emma the tipping culture in the US is completely different than the UK. So it is unfair comparison.

Also, while you may be vocal and let a server know when service is bad not everyone is like you. Also some people have the policy of not tipping when the service is acceptable and only tipping a bit for outstanding service. So how is a server supposed to know in those cases? You would be surprised how many patrons come in to a restaurant in a bad mood and/or are rude to waitstaff before we even have a chance to deliver poor service.

One of my favorite situations that happens often.

Server: "Good evening, my name is...."
Patron: "Iced Tea!"

As for wage situation, honestly I am not familiar with UK's wages for restaurant employees, cost of living in UK, tax situation, benefits etc. That play a part in total standard of living. I am only familiar with how it is in the US.

You may not like our system, but like I said there are ways to avoid it (don't travel here or when here do not eat at sit down restaurants) or you can just roll with the punches. There are lots of things in the UK that I think are silly but when I am there I follow local customs.

Sorry, I should have said, I have lived in Canada for several years now, so am familiar with the North American tipping culture. The 0 and bad service on the credit card line is an American btw, in the UK they use chip and pin almost exclusively so there isn't that option.

The culture is different, but the job is pretty much identical which is why I don't feel tipping for poor service helps anyone (except the rubbish servers). Even with me, and a couple of other people refusing to tip for bad service, that guy is probably still making more an hour than the people who give excellent service in the UK. For the same job. In very similar living conditions (I am not going to try and compare the US and a third world country server).

I have to say, in Canada, I understand it even less, because the servers are paid, almost exactly, the same as British servers, and then Canadians get the tip on top - it is lucrative being a server in Canada from what I have witnessed - and I see that in the demographics - in the UK a huge number of those working in bars and restaurants are under 25 - it is probably the most normal job to hold when you are finishing high school or at Uni - I think most of my friends did a stint as a bartender, server or catering waiter while they were in high school or Uni. In Canada I see far more people over 25 employed in the industry, I guess, because it is a lot easier to make a good living here by doing it.

In the UK minimum wage is pretty similar in its purpose to the US minimum wage - it is what the government deems is enough to live on when you work a regular working week. It is based on things like cost of living, rate of inflation etc. At current exchange rates, it is around $9 US an hour, and then you pay tax, national insurance etc. on that. The cost of living in the UK is higher than in the US (for example, I will compare apples with apples, London and New York say, London has a far higher cost of living than New York) so in real terms, servers in the UK do not actually get $1.75 more, as their costs are higher too. The majority of UK workers in the restaurant industry would not get things like pension, private health cover etc.

I agree there is no excuse for bad manners on either side!

I'm not sure how it is in the UK or Canada, but in the US many minimum wage and other low paid service jobs do not come with 40 hours a week. Employers and managers are quite keen to keep from paying overtime and keep hours well below 40 to avoid having to do so even in an emergency situation. It is far easier to earn a living wage through the tipping system, especially if you are good at it and capable of squeezing the extra % out of your customers through friendly, efficient service. Just something to think about.

On the subject of tip-outs (tip sharing as opposed to tip pooling), I always found it ironic to be stiffed by a server (I worked as a busboy in highschool) who would b**** and moan about cheap customers when I could keep track of the cash left on her tables as I cleared them (it was an almost 100% cash economy back in the 60's). Busboys made the server minimum and then got 10% of the servers' tips on the honor system. We knew when we were being treated dishonestly, but the servers were our customers and you know whose tables were cleared last the next night after a stiffing. :td: