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Originally Posted by planemechanic
(Post 15618862)
people like you are doing nothing to make this change happen.
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Originally Posted by pacer142
(Post 15619004)
Sorry? Inflation increases the price of a meal. Thus, the value of a tip increases as well. Why should it increase the percentage?
Increasingly miserable employers who won't keep up with cost-of-living increases is more likely the explanation. Neil since more often than not they are covering multiple tables.. 10% should be more than enough
Originally Posted by cepheid
(Post 15620039)
Quite arguably, neither are you - there is a huge difference between actively pushing for change (lobbying the state legislature, organizing a grassroots movement, petitioning, etc.) and simply "bucking the system" by not tipping. The former requires a lot more motivation, namely caring about the servers' wages enough to put in that work... from your statements, it would appear that you don't really care whether servers are underpaid or not, but rather only about not having (or being expected) to tip. And, while I disagree with that sentiment, I can't fault you for it... but please don't couch your refusal to tip as a "push for change" - you aren't pushing for change, you are simply refusing to participate in a voluntary system.
When I was in undergrad, I chose to work in "other" low paying jobs b/c I didn't want to rely on tips, rely on dealing with the masses etc.. I knew I would work X amount of hours and receive X amount of pay. I also knew if I did my job half arsed I'd be canned. this comment goes to whomever posted that servers or backroom personnel would spit or otherwise damage food if they wanted to get back at a customer that wasn't liked. Not only should that person who did the deed be canned and prosecuted; any employee who knowingly let this slide and failed to report the incident should be canned and prosecuted right along side the criminal who did the deed. depending on the restaurants reaction; I might even go to the extent to publicize it in every possible way.. again depending on how the restaurant handled it |
Alright, I said I would stay out but one final post to clear up a couple of things. First on the idea of "spitting" in people's food. Never once did I say anything like that. Planemechanic, jumped on that wagon.
What I was talking about was doing simple little tricks such as microwaving someones bread so it was piping hot when you dropped it off and then hard as a brick a minute later, under dressing someone's salad is another, or picking out wilted leaves or soggy tomatoes when builing said salad. Watering down someone's tea or coffee, not sending their food to the kitchen for a while so they wait longer to eat, letting their food get colder before you take it out etc. That being said, that doesn't make those actions right, and never did I condone those actions. I just stated that these people are handling your food and there are some who don't value their job as much as others. As for the whole 10% thing vs 15-18% now. Perhaps I wasn't very good at explaining it so let me go into detail with some links. In 1966, US congress proposed that tipped employees should get paid half of minimum wage, which at the time was around 1.50 In 1996, Congress froze the tipping wage increase at 50% of the wage at the time which was 4.25. That is where the magic number of 2.13 comes from which is the salary of most tipped employees. Since that time the federal minimum wage has increased to over 7.00 an hour. Guess what the minimum wage of servers is? It is still frozen at 2.13. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0774473.html http://www.paywizard.org/main/askpay...waitress-wages So while at one time servers used to make half of minimum wage now it is less than 1/3. I know many of you will say it isn't my problem and its up to the managers to pay employees a livable wage and other such excuses. The bottom line is that servers haven't had a raise in their minimum wage in 15 years which is why you have seen an increase in tipping percentage from 10% to 15-18%. I know many people that would be pretty upset if they didn't get a raise in 15 years. Because as you all know the cost of living in 2011 isn't the same as in 1996. I can understand if you don't think it is fair that the customers have to provide that and feel that the restaurant should. That is a valid argument and one that might carry more weight in a congressperson's inbox than an internet message board. However, just like taxes aren't included in the vast majority of items people purchase neither is the gratuity and if it was, while some would appreciate the "honesty" many others wouldn't appreciate the rise in prices. If you are against the tipping system, I hope you are doing something productive to try and change it. But stiffing someone who is just trying to do their job and take care of themselves/their families doesn't change the system, it just makes their lives worse. Edited to address some individual issues
Originally Posted by planemechanic
Maybe you would have worked harder at it if you weren't getting such low pay. Who knows, but it is a possibility.
Originally Posted by planemechanic
people like you are doing nothing to make this change happen.
I do not mind the current tipping structure so I don't see any need to change it. You are the one that thinks tipping = bribery and therefore the best way to "change" the system is to stiff honest hardworking people. The point of me posting on this thread was hopefully to give out insight and advice if necessary. Not to try and convince others to tip or tip more. |
Originally Posted by billycorgan
(Post 15621314)
such excuses.
The bottom line is that servers haven't had a raise in their minimum wage in 15 years which is why you have seen an increase in tipping percentage from 10% to 15-18%. I know many people that would be pretty upset if they didn't get a raise in 15 years. Because as you all know the cost of living in 2011 isn't the same as in 1996. . he would have in wages 40 hrs * 2.13 or $85.20 in gross wages vs $145 in gross wages at $3.625 per hour. The delta being $60 a week or being shortchanged 41% of wages adjusted for inflation... for a FT waiter.. while I wouldn't want to lose $60 a week in anything it is not such a big deal in total compensation including tips Now I'll use round numbers here > but for when tip income is added to the inflation of meal/drink prices compared with 1996.. I'm guessing the employee has not really lost out on all that much.. if I paid $25 for a meal and drink in 1996 and am paying up to $40 for that meal now.. my tip has just moved from $2.50 in 1996 to $4.00 today; that should account for the difference in the minimum wage adjustment. Since most people tip in the 15% range.. that number is more like $3.75 in 1996 to $6.00 today.. I only see a loss in total compensation if prices do not increase. Its safe to say that restaurant prices have increased since 1996. |
Remind me why I should care about the wage structure of a restaurant’s employees? I don’t care about the pay scales and Ts & Cs of public transport workers, or security guards, or shop workers, or Big Issue sellers. Why must I care about remuneration of waiters?
Service is clearly an integral part of a meal in a restaurant. I suppose if it is seen as an optional extra I could tell the restaurant I don’t want the service on the side. How would that work? And how about hairdressing? Apparently that is a tipped service in USA. What exactly is the tip for here? You cannot deliver a haircut without actually cutting the hair. |
Following a bit of discussion on my blackberry.. I make a point in tipping when I can.. but sometimes I don't have the change on me, so I let the service people know. I try to appreciate the service that they provide, and try to be courteous.. that is to treat them how I want to be treated.
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Originally Posted by billycorgan
(Post 15618146)
Every person in America could not just find a different job, because there will always be people that want to go out and eat and want to be served. If servers were the lowest paid people in the US perhaps I would understand this argument more - but really, they aren't, with tipping most decent waiters make a fair amount, certainly more than a lot of other professions. I can't believe that you are comparing the situation of one state to the other 49 then suggesting everyone to move there. Not very logical or practical. I don't know if you have noticed this or not Plane, but most people aren't career servers. Waiting tables is a job that most people do while they are going to school and/or trying to get experience to get a better job in the career that are pursuing. The statement of "Go get a better job" is not only insensitive, but often impractical. Most people don't walk out of high school with the ability or connections to go out and get the great jobs. Heck some people with the job market the way it is can't even find a good job with their college diploma. But lets make them all suffer because after all they should all just get better jobs or move to California. With 2 exceptions, ever server in my local restaurant is over 35. Or better yet maybe all waitstaff should just quit and live on welfare, at least then they would be guaranteed a livable wage. If you do not tip then your business while perhaps good for the company, is not good for any workers that are unfortunate enough to have to serve you. Ok, planemechanic you got me, payroll is going to go up by thousands of dollars each month. Where is that additional money going to come from? You say you are from America, what do most business do 99% of the time when the occur extra expenses? Not necessarily. If people avoid eating out because they don't like current tipping practice, and would far rather know the total cost up front (as some on this thread have indicated they would like), that restaurant could attract, say, 15% more business by appealing to those individuals. Thus the restaurant could pay its staff minimum wage, pay its overheads, etc. all without increasing prices. The job of a server is to estabilsh a personal connection with the customer. Otherwise why would we tell you our name? We are here to make sure that not only do we make sure you get what you ordered in a reasonable amount of time and it to be correct, but to take care of any other reasonable requests you may have. If you don't want service why not just order things to go and take it home. If you do want service then you obviously know that it is polite and customary to tip if the service was acceptable. And then there are the ones who would clearly far rather be playing on the X box, and see every customer as a chore. Most don't bother using their name and certainly don't strive for excellence. Maybe I get my food on time, maybe I get my water refilled. But there is a whole host of 'experience' difference between that guy, and someone happy, cheerful and who does the same. Yet by your standards, I should tip both 15-18%. 30 years ago a gallon of gas was a quarter. Sure it can go back to a quarter but it is very unlikely. 15-18% is considered standard at most places where the service was to your liking. That is to handle cost of living. No one likes inflation anymore than they like tipping. As others have said, tipping a percentage does not change due to inflation. The amount, of course, does. Of course I have no facts on how many people don't participate in tipping, just like you have no facts on how many do. I can say from personal experience I was only stiffed rarely. That seemed to be the case for many other servers. So from what I have seen most people tip some amount and the ones that don't tip at all are a rarity. You know plane, I got in on this thread to help and to try and give insider advice from my time as a waiter. I no longer wait tables, it was a job to help pay for my bills while I was in college getting my masters. I now have that "better job" it only took five years of hard work and study, plus some internships. I am grateful that I had a job like waiting tables that allowed me the flexibility to be able to work and take care of my other responsibilities. I am equally grateful that the vast majority of my customers over the 5 years I worked in the business did not have the attitude and beliefs of Plane and others who don't believe in tipping. I would surely be much worse off today than I am now if that were the case. The more I think about it the more I realize how futile my place in this tread is. I am never going to change the fact that you Plane, think tipping is bribery. I apologize if I came across rude or angry, but when I see people who have beliefs that hurt people it does make me angry. For example, TSA has the belief that they need to see children naked, or to harass honest people with disabilities to make airplanes safer and that makes me angry. Since this will be my last post in this thread I do want to leave one parting "food for thought" comment. I make this statement not to scare anyone into any type of behavior but just to give some final insight into this thread. I do want people to understand that restaurants are responsible for handling the food that you are about to eat. If you are a frequent customer to a place you probably have some type of reputation with the staff. There were some groups that came in often that were excellent tippers and every server wanted them and always gave their best and went above and beyond for them. There were some groups that were notoriously poor tippers (if at all) and no one wanted them and they usually would receive just average service if that. The vast majority of the people I worked with wouldn't do anything to a patrons food but I did know of a few that would/did. I liked my job too much to do that, but there were others who were willing to take the risk of being fired to get back at a rude customer or someone that had stiffed them too many times. |
Originally Posted by emma69
(Post 15626043)
That behaviour is simply shocking. No one should have their food tampered with, whether health violation or not, and anyone who did that when I worked in the industry would have been fired, no question. Moreover, my own sense of right would have ensured that I would have given my best service to everyone, not just those I thought were going to tip well.
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Originally Posted by Ancien Maestro
(Post 15627793)
I read the dialogue, as the employee's experience of others' actions.. but still surreal to have it actually confirmed.:(
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Tips for Bags vs. Strained Backs
Though luggage is on rollers there is always the need to lift valpacks and hang them in closets and put other luggage on luggage stands. For a $5 tip to someone earning $7/hr. why at age 62-75 take the chance of straining your back and possible ruin the first day or two of a vacation. You just spent $400-$750 on airfare and you are concerned about $5.
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The history of tipping - it's originally a British custom, apparently.
Repost from November -09:
I just love these "dirty American custom" threads. Long snip from NYT article on tipping, 2008: Tipping was imported from Europe, and when it arrived in America, it met with impassioned and organized opposition. While the precise origin of tipping is uncertain, it is commonly traced to Tudor England, according to “Tipping,” Kerry Segrave’s history of the custom. By the 17th century, it was expected that overnight guests to private homes would provide sums of money, known as vails, to the host’s servants. Soon after, customers began tipping in London coffeehouses and other commercial establishments. One frequented by Samuel Johnson had a bowl printed with the words “To Insure Promptitude,” and some speculate that “tip” is an acronym for this phrase. Tipping began as an aristocratic practice, a sprinkle of change for social inferiors, and it quickly spread among the upper classes of Europe. Yet even at its outset, tipping engendered feelings of anxiety and resentment. In the mid-1800s, after leaving the Bell Inn of Gloucester, the Scottish writer Thomas Carlyle complained: “The dirty scrub of a waiter grumbled about his allowance, which I reckoned liberal. I added sixpence to it, and [he] produced a bow which I was near rewarding with a kick.” After the Civil War, wealthy Americans began traveling to Europe in significant numbers, and they brought the tip home with them to demonstrate their worldliness. But the United States, unlike Europe, had no aristocratic tradition, and as tipping spread — like “evil insects and weeds,” The New York Times claimed in 1897 — many thought it was antithetical to American democratic ideals. “Tipping, and the aristocratic idea it exemplifies, is what we left Europe to escape,” William Scott wrote in his 1916 anti-tipping screed, “The Itching Palm.” One periodical of the same era deplored tipping for creating a class of workers who relied on “fawning for favors.” Opposition to tipping was not limited to the media. In 1904, the Anti-Tipping Society of America sprang up in Georgia, and its 100,000 members signed pledges not to tip anyone for a year. Leagues of traveling salesmen opposed the tip, as did most labor unions. In 1909, Washington became the first of six states to pass an anti-tipping law. But tipping persisted. The new laws rarely were enforced, and when they were, they did not hold up in court. By 1926, every anti-tipping law had been repealed. Ultimately, even those who in principle opposed the practice found themselves unable to stiff their servers. Samuel Gompers, who was president of the American Federation of Labor and a leading figure of the anti-tipping movement, admitted that he “followed the usual custom of giving tips.” Meanwhile, Europe was rethinking its devotion to the custom. The 1943 Catering Wages Act in Britain established a minimum wage for service employees that helped decrease their reliance on tips. And in 1955, France passed a law requiring its restaurants to add a service charge (“service compris”) to each bill, a practice that has become the norm for most of the continent. By then, the anti-tipping movement had all but vanished in the United States. Its last great champion, the social scientist Leo Crespi, died in July of this year. Sixty years earlier, Crespi published a scholarly study of tipping and called for the formation of a National Anti-Tipping League of diners. But the call went unanswered — even by Crespi, who never dined out. |
so I go to a dinner in a nice steak house last week. I get there early to chat with a co-worker. He orders two beers for us and the waiter says its $12.60. He gives him a $20. The waiter returns with one of those receipt folders with $7 even in it. In other words he just kept the 40 cents. Its not much I know but otoh, it is not his to keep.
Needless to say I order a round next and its the same price. I used a debit card though and left him 40 cents. Its what I thought he would want since that is what he "took" last time. funny thing was I was thinking of this thread the moment it happened. |
Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
(Post 15658959)
so I go to a dinner in a nice steak house last week. I get there early to chat with a co-worker. He orders two beers for us and the waiter says its $12.60. He gives him a $20. The waiter returns with one of those receipt folders with $7 even in it. In other words he just kept the 40 cents. Its not much I know but otoh, it is not his to keep.
Needless to say I order a round next and its the same price. I used a debit card though and left him 40 cents. Its what I thought he would want since that is what he "took" last time. funny thing was I was thinking of this thread the moment it happened. |
Nothing [i]requires[/i] tipping.
Originally Posted by Himeno
(Post 15578482)
Simple. Remembering a simple fact. Nothing requires tipping.
A tip is not something you deserve. It is something that is earned. You do not earn a tip just because you have a job with crappy pay.
Originally Posted by Himeno
(Post 15578482)
A tip is not something you deserve. It is something that is earned.
FWIW, I tip the maids in US hotels DAILY as a bribe to perform better. |
Couple of things to say here.
1. I hate having a surcharge added automatically (as is often automatic for groups of >6 or so) and then expecting a tip on top of that. 2. I generally tip heavily. As in 20-25%. The few extra dollars means nothing to me, but is often significant to the recipient. 3. I'll use a bellman if I have more than one bag, but will refuse if he/she just grabs it without asking. 4. I'm of mixed feelings about tipping in hotel rooms. I usually stay a week and check out on Saturday AM. Will that week-size tip go to the entire housekeeping staff, or just the Saturday on-duty person? If I knew it was shared, I'd be more generous. 5. When service is bad I tell the server and the manager. Leaving no tip makes me look like a stiff and sends no message. Speaking up does. I will leave 5-8% in that case, though, since I'm aware of the tax laws and see no reason that even incompetent staff pay to serve me. 6. If food is bad, I tell management, but don't reduce the tip. The server didn't cook it. 7. If I take a table but only order an appetizer (common when arriving late or jet lagged) I tip very large since the waiter only has a few tables on which to earn a living. |
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