Ok planemechanic, you aren't a tightwad. You are just too tight with your money to tip average service. You are just so cheap that you grossly undertip great service. I got it! You totally don't sound like a tightwad at all. Sorry how could I have made that mistake.



Even though you are the one personally responsible for causing them to lose money and therefore "waste" their time serving you. I am sure you would be completely ok with not getting paid for some of the hours/work you did while you were working right?



How are you over paying for a meal? If tipping didn't exist do you think prices wouldn't go up? If anything we are all underpaying for meals currently because prices would be higher if restaurants had to raise their payroll.

If you know that if you go over to certain peoples houses it is customary to take off your shoes before you walk inside and you don't because their is no law or contractual relationship requiring you to do so you are rude.

If you go to a place where you know tipping is customary and the service isn't poor and you don't tip you are being rude.

Look, I know everyone has different opinions and beliefs. I don't think anyone loves tipping. It can feel like giving away money. It does seem that more and more business and employees have tip jars and wanting charity. I am not advocating tipping those people.

There are people however that truly do survive based on your generosity (servers mainly), please keep that in mind if you happen to eat out in the US when you have your bill in hand after a great meal, which was paced nicely and where you had your drinks and bread maintained at a reasonable pace. Under tipping or not tipping your server does not directly make the whole tipping situation better instead you are just taking a small piece of that persons monthly livelihood away from them.

If you really care that much about it and it bothers you that much, then there are other ways to draw awareness and try to change the system. Grassroots movements, public awareness seminars, petitions, letters to congresspeople, news coverage etc.

:D:D:D:D:D:D
most ridiculous thing I've seen in a while

-i dont like the idea of tipping, but i feel pressured to do so out of social convention

-when i do tip, i end up much better than the average (at restaurants probably 25% lifetime average.. and even tip take-out services)

-obv always tip at restauraunts, and i tip the hair cutter because we have a "rapport" and i would feel uncomfortable with my scalp under their scissors otherwise

-i like non-US restaurants... not because i dont have to tip , but moreso the idea that one pays in total exactly the price that is listed (whether the service/gst is "built-in" or not is inconsequential to me)

-i avoid bellboys, doormen, and valets... less so because of my perceived value of the service (NOTHING), but because of my discomfort with the idea of needing someone to carry my bags. i grew up poor, and it just seems wrong...

Perhaps it's my European perspective but I don't get the idea of talking to a manager if the service is terrible. I view the relationship as between employer and employee - not my business to intervene either by paying wages (through tips) or through reporting to management. If I get poor service I just don't go back.

A bribe is paid before the fact; a tip is not. I suppose you could call it a reward, of sorts, but it's not a bribe. (And I do agree it should be lessened or not paid for poor performance, just like a garment with a tear should be discounted or refunded.)

Why, then, do you support government health and safety regulations? Why not let the free market decide? If employees don't like the safety protocols at a particular place, they can find a new job.

And, similarly, what employers do with customers is also a free market issue, and an employee's contract is with his employer, not the customer; why then, do you feel it is inappropriate for employees to give poor service to customers when they are upset with the employer? Why shouldn't they be free to do as they please, since the customer can simply go someplace else?

(And, again, I support your position on these last issues... but it seems to disagree with your position on the free market vis-a-vis tipping.)

You do not have to talk with a manager if you do not feel like it. I only talk to a manager if the food/service is atrocious. However, there are benefits for the business if you choose this option. The manager gets to know if a server is doing their job poorly. Obviously a server that has many complaints over a short period of time will either have their hours cut, tables in their section reduced or just fired. Also their is a possibility that a portion or the entirety of your bill may be refunded, or a coupon for a free meal could be given for a future visit, to entice you to come back.

By all means please do not feel like it is necessary or needed to get a manager. Usually if I go to a place for the first time and the food/service is poor we don't go back (unless they just opened) then I assume they are working out the kinks.

I usually save talks with managers for places that I do like to go to semi-often and I would like to stay a customer but wouldn't if things do not improve.

I second this

the guy who puts up a menu with the total price (tax & tip) is the guy who will get my business

man I hear ya on the bellboys etc.. I value them as a zero value service as well.. or just a palm facing out is more like it

There is no such thing as "undertipping". When I go to the auto store for parts and the guy spends 30 minutes helping me get the right parts, suggesting alternatives at a cheaper price and then offering instructions to help the repair go smoother should I tip them as well? Do I tip the flight attendant who is there "primarily for my safety" when what I want most is a helpful person who can bring me food and water when asked? What about my dentist, who gets to know me far better than any waitress will ever know me, should I tip them too? What about the pharmacist who finds out all sorts of details that I would probably not share with a stranger in normal situations, should I tip them too? Do I want good service from all of them? Of course, and you would probably agree that they shouldn't be tipped. What are your reasons for not tipping them? Mine, they get paid to do the job that they are employed to do, and I should be able to expect that service from them when I engage their services through their employer. And they also make a good wage doing it.

And thats the point, no one should have to rely on a system of bribery to do their daily job. They should be paid a livable wage.



Yes, I would. If I accepted a job where I was not getting paid and relied and bribery to perform to acceptable standards. It would be my choice to accept that job, those conditions and those possible results. I don't find those outcomes acceptable, so I make the mature adult decision to not seek work at those employers. Every single wait person in American can make the same decision. Or they can live in a state like California where there is no $2.13 wage for wait staff, they are subject to the minimum wage, which in CA is also higher than the Federal minimum wage. Don't like working for minimum wages? Go get a better job.


If the menu says $10 for a burger and fries I expect the bill to come saying I owe $10. You are asking me to pay $11.50 for a burger that is cold and comes late with the pickle that I asked not to be there. Even if the burger comes and is EXACTLY how I like it and I would eat there again, the price of the burger and fries is $10, nothing more. If there burger is perfect and I become a repeat customer then that is good for the business and the worker, because without customers there is no business nor any workers.


Pure speculation on your part.


Bad comparison. If I go over to someones house it is because I have a personal relationship with them, and if I fail to heed their wishes in this matter I will either never be invited back or I will no longer be considered a friend.

If I order food in a restaurant it is because I am entering a business transaction, and I am the customer. It is entirely possible for the business to ban tipping and pay their workers well, and if they do I am more likely to do business with them to encourage that behavior, but what I really want is the food I order to arrive in a reasonable amount of time and to be what I ordered.



Customs can and do change. 30 years ago a 10% tip was considered normal and acceptable, now you are advocating for 20% or more. It can go the other way. You are assuming tipping is the norm, but you probably have no facts on just how many people in America actually participate. Your anger and rude comments don't help your case.

I won't quibble on the words, bribe, reward, inducement, what ever. It is wrong no matter what you call it. I can live with calling it a reward, but are rewards normally expected at every transaction?


I see a big difference in the employer/employee relationship and the employee/customer relationship. The relationship and protections and that we, the public, expect from our daily interactions are passed through the system of government that we have.

I think my position is based on who has the power and who has the information. When someone is looking for work they are on a more equal footing when it comes to the issue of wages. They know up front what the wages are and are free to accept or reject them. When it comes to workplace safety the employer is presumed to have the power (to purchase safe equipment, to design a more ergonomic workplace) and the information to protect its workers. The worker does not have the power to research all possible workplace safety issues (such as egress paths, proper fire fighting equipment, etc..) because they lack the information and knowledge that the employer has. We, the citizens of this country, think that is unfair to ask the employee to shoulder that burden alone, so we place it on the employer and force them to share that information and to take precautions to keep them safe. To do otherwise would be to reward the employer who doesn't mind having a bunch of ex-workers named "lefty".

I have a strong dislike for hypocrites. And anyone who claims to be a "professional" who then takes their internal business relationship with their employer and causes me discomfort or annoyance is not a professional. They freely entered into a contract to perform work, and then make false claims about what their employer can and cannot do and also get upset when their employer requires them to follow their contract. They are the ones who should be leaving for a new employer, not me looking for a new place to do business with.

A true professional will make their place of work the best place it can be for both co-workers and customers.

I do, too. The reason why I've been asking you all these questions is that your stance seemed rather hypocritical to me. With your much more detailed explanation, I have reconsidered: your philosophy, as described, is applied (at least relatively) uniformly, so you are not applying your principles only when convenient. I don't agree with your actions, necessarily, but I do not consider you a hypocrite.

Well, I'm not referring to making false claims and not working according to the contract. However, the contract does not stipulate that an employee has to smile or even be polite; as long as the employee performs the required duties, they are performing their contracted work. A pilot who chooses to keep the seatbelt sign on throughout the entire flight, for example, even in smooth air; or an FA who serves the passengers but does only the minimum required service, does not smile, and is curt in his/her interactions; etc. - all of these are performing their required work and living up to their contract, even if the customer nevertheless still suffers due to the minimum, impersonal performance.

Therefore, it is entirely possible for an employee to perform exactly according to his/her contract and yet still make the customer suffer. Let's assume for the moment that the employee has (e.g. via advertisements by the union, or similar) informed the customer that service will be at the absolute minimum required level. The customer arguably has much more power than the employee: the customer can much more easily use a different carrier than the employee could find a new job. So, in this scenario, why is it still the employee's problem if the customer suffers, when the customer holds the decision-making power?

I agree with that.

Tipping isn't bribery. The server doesn't start the meal with "You will tip me 15% or I will make sure that you have an unpleasant dining experience."

The statement that they should be paid a livable wage is your opinion and irrelevant. The FACT is that they are not, and your philosophy directly takes money from them.




There is that bribery word again. I have a feeling that you like using that word because it helps you justify not tipping people that rely completely on your generosity for their well being.

Every person in America could not just find a different job, because there will always be people that want to go out and eat and want to be served.

I can't believe that you are comparing the situation of one state to the other 49 then suggesting everyone to move there. Not very logical or practical.

I don't know if you have noticed this or not Plane, but most people aren't career servers. Waiting tables is a job that most people do while they are going to school and/or trying to get experience to get a better job in the career that are pursuing. The statement of "Go get a better job" is not only insensitive, but often impractical. Most people don't walk out of high school with the ability or connections to go out and get the great jobs. Heck some people with the job market the way it is can't even find a good job with their college diploma. But lets make them all suffer because after all they should all just get better jobs or move to California.

Or better yet maybe all waitstaff should just quit and live on welfare, at least then they would be guaranteed a livable wage.


If you do not tip then your business while perhaps good for the company, is not good for any workers that are unfortunate enough to have to serve you.

Ok, planemechanic you got me, payroll is going to go up by thousands of dollars each month. Where is that additional money going to come from? You say you are from America, what do most business do 99% of the time when the occur extra expenses?



The job of a server is to estabilsh a personal connection with the customer. Otherwise why would we tell you our name? We are here to make sure that not only do we make sure you get what you ordered in a reasonable amount of time and it to be correct, but to take care of any other reasonable requests you may have. If you don't want service why not just order things to go and take it home. If you do want service then you obviously know that it is polite and customary to tip if the service was acceptable.




30 years ago a gallon of gas was a quarter. Sure it can go back to a quarter but it is very unlikely. 15-18% is considered standard at most places where the service was to your liking. That is to handle cost of living. No one likes inflation anymore than they like tipping.

Of course I have no facts on how many people don't participate in tipping, just like you have no facts on how many do. I can say from personal experience I was only stiffed rarely. That seemed to be the case for many other servers. So from what I have seen most people tip some amount and the ones that don't tip at all are a rarity.

You know plane, I got in on this thread to help and to try and give insider advice from my time as a waiter. I no longer wait tables, it was a job to help pay for my bills while I was in college getting my masters. I now have that "better job" it only took five years of hard work and study, plus some internships.

I am grateful that I had a job like waiting tables that allowed me the flexibility to be able to work and take care of my other responsibilities. I am equally grateful that the vast majority of my customers over the 5 years I worked in the business did not have the attitude and beliefs of Plane and others who don't believe in tipping. I would surely be much worse off today than I am now if that were the case.

The more I think about it the more I realize how futile my place in this tread is. I am never going to change the fact that you Plane, think tipping is bribery.

I apologize if I came across rude or angry, but when I see people who have beliefs that hurt people it does make me angry. For example, TSA has the belief that they need to see children naked, or to harass honest people with disabilities to make airplanes safer and that makes me angry.

Since this will be my last post in this thread I do want to leave one parting "food for thought" comment. I make this statement not to scare anyone into any type of behavior but just to give some final insight into this thread.

I do want people to understand that restaurants are responsible for handling the food that you are about to eat.

If you are a frequent customer to a place you probably have some type of reputation with the staff. There were some groups that came in often that were excellent tippers and every server wanted them and always gave their best and went above and beyond for them. There were some groups that were notoriously poor tippers (if at all) and no one wanted them and they usually would receive just average service if that.

The vast majority of the people I worked with wouldn't do anything to a patrons food but I did know of a few that would/did. I liked my job too much to do that, but there were others who were willing to take the risk of being fired to get back at a rude customer or someone that had stiffed them too many times.

And yet you feel the need to write this:


So it's not a bribe but there are those who will spit in your food if you don't. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR MAKING MY POINT.


California is not the only state that does this, and every single state has the option to follow and every single state has citizens who could push for this change. The fact that they don't make this change is what REALLY hurts wait staff, and people like you are doing nothing to make this change happen. If you want to see the problem you should look in the mirror rather than attack people who refuse to participate in what you helped to establish is bribery.

And most people do not get out of high school and take a job as a waiter.


Yeah, that will work. You are clearly getting desperate and losing this argument if you feel the need to throw out this wild claim.


Yet they are fortunate enough to have a job, just not one that you will push for change to their salary. You would rather they live on the generosity of others.


Business will always do the same thing. They will raise prices to whatever the market will bear. Just like the cost of renting a home. If the market will bear a higher price the landlord will raise the price. That does not mean they will make a profit. If a business' costs go up they MIGHT raise prices, or they might cut costs in other places. You have no evidence which will happen at any particular location.

Their job is to SERVE me my food. I don't need or care about their "personal" connection attempt, and I would venture to say that most of them don't care about it either, other than as a way to increase their bribe.

Most likely because they are told to do so as part of their employment. Also to let me know who they are in case I have a problem or need something.


Why, the business I am engaging to conduct this transactions pays their employees to provide the service I am asking for.


I want service and I am paying for service. Why do you think you need to get involved in that transaction.



I think you have your math wrong. Although prices were lower back then the percentage still works. 10% of a $3 meal is 30 cents, 10% of a $30 meal is $3. THAT is where the cost of living and inflation come in, not in the artificial increase in the percentage. In your world we will be seeing a 50% tip as "normal" in 50 years. And then you will be back here defending that new bribery system.


Maybe you would have worked harder at it if you weren't getting such low pay. Who knows, but it is a possibility.


So you had this job, in part, because it offered you other things besides money, it offered you flexibility. That must have come into the decision when you were thinking about taking the job. But since it came with low wages you want your customers to supplement your income. That's your choice, but we don't have to agree with you.


Your anger isn't helping your position here. Maybe if we tipped the TSA they would no longer want to see children naked? Have you tried tipping them?

Sorry? Inflation increases the price of a meal. Thus, the value of a tip increases as well. Why should it increase the percentage?

Increasingly miserable employers who won't keep up with cost-of-living increases is more likely the explanation.

Neil

If anyone did that, I hope they were caught and not only fired, but also subject to criminal charges. Tip or no tip, sabotaging customers' food is utterly unacceptable. Your posting appears to justify it; it is unjustifiable.

Neil