With my moderator's hat off.

Curiosity got the better of me and I spent a considerable amount of time searching for the sources of data used by the KVS Tool.

I ran across a book that shed some light.
KVS Tools is discussed on pages 10 and 11 (Google Books).

Please keep in mind that this book was published in 2011 and that the sources and methods used by KVS may have changed since then.

Interesting answer by KVS:
from here

Even if he could scrape his own site, it doesn't matter because the underlying data seems to be inaccurate.

Posted the same in this thread already: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/23918986-post47.html

After long lurking finally I have a question: why do you guys keep riding on the same topic over and over again, why don't you just simply stop subscribing?

some (maybe even many) of the frequent posters who are "riding on the same topic over and over again" are in fact not subscribers. They just enjoy policing what others are doing and/or have an axe to grind. For them your question is moot.

The thread was opened to allow FTers to discuss anything related to the KVS 'availability' app. It isn't reserved for current users.

I don't need to be a current customer of a particular product to have an interest in services that help users retrieve information about flights, fares and availability in a convenient and accessible fashion. The KVS app used to do this and following this thread is a way of following developments, including learning if/when functionality is restored or the product goes legit.

I agree, and you state your position reasonably.
I never said that people who are not users should somehow be forbidden from posting. We just need a reasonable conversation.

[Deleted by moderator]

It means that the MC POS is not fixed/static and can vary.

As noted previously, users, who believe that there may be practical issues that affects their searches, can provide the flight details via the Contact Form, so that we can look into that.

For me, this became the reason why I cancelled. Without knowing the POS for availability the information becomes very much less useful. I am grateful to the folks at KVS for the way they handled by cancellation and I will certainly look at it again as the tool evolves. I have always received fast and helpful responses to any questions I've posed whether on this forum on via the contact form.

Can KVS currently search accurately for Star Alliance upgrade space (i.e. I class)?

I've been using the ANA search tool to look for space on Eva flights but it's quite painful to do so manually every day for the routes I'm interested in.

The KVS default *A award search simply scrapes the ANA website, so it will show the same results.

OK - I am one of those who can be seen critical of KVS. So put it straight:

1. I have been KVS subscriber for long time and was extremely happy until things started to go pear-shaped.
2. I am one of the people who at one stage analyzed the tool (I have qualification for that and I do it for living - I am forensic expert in the field of computer crime and fraud. I regularly present my opinions at courts of law in several jurisdictions) and realized that not everything was exactly "kosher"... However, doing so, I have breached KVS Tools TOS, so I decided to keep quiet... Well, was forced by KVS, but that's between me and KVS.
3. I was due for renewal in November 2014 and since functions that I used most (revenue availability) were quickly becoming either unavailable or unreliable, I decided to stop supporting rather dubious business, that; a) has one or two servers hosted in Seattle, b) another in Chicago, and c) domain registration is issued to post box in Funafuti, on tiny atoll of Tuvalu in South Pacific Ocean.
4. I can technically prove everything I said.

On the other hand, as a long term user I have to say following:

1. IMHO if not all then many subscribers to KVS are responsible for the fact that KVS lost most of the sources of relatively cheep (nearly free) data. There are so many posts on FT, Milepoint and other forums, using KVS to help people to ascertain load on flights etc. I did that too before I realized that sources are precious and I should not probably do it. Guilty as charged.
2. KVS did great job while it was possible. However, IMHO, it is now time to wind that company down, and admit, it is not possible anymore for revenue availability...
3. KVS is still great for searching award availability. Yes, it is using dubious methods and some can be considered unethical or even illegal, but hey, time is money...

I am not sure if I will be posting more here, but I will see. It depends...

Finally as a challenge, can someone who still has KVS subscription find me some reasonably priced REVENUE availability between HBA and FUN, return? I think it could be FUN to try to check that post box KVS has its domain registered to:D

I am also one who is clearly critical. I wish I had performed some DD when I was a subscriber. Had I done that, I would have found that these issues really started popping up around 2011.

In some cases (those where KVS scrapes a site with no specific TOS against it, that may be the case with GOL) the sources of the data present a moral issue, in others (where a specific TOS prohibits what KVS does, or directing users to create a fraudulent account at a university), it's not a moral issue, it's a legal issue (perhaps you can make it a moral issue if the question you're asking yourself is, "is it ok to violate TOS or break the law if it's highly unlikely that I will get caught/have any liability for doing so?").

Regardless, the truly unfortunate thing is that the tool (when it functioned with everything working and accurate) was very useful. Unfortunately, the business model has taken a negative trajectory in response to TOSes being added to sources of data that prohibit what KVS does, etc. I don't think there is a way to get this back on track and I agree with this poster, it's time to wind it down.

I imagine everyone would be even more interested to hear KVS's authoritative voice on the future of his product. It has now been months since "Availability" became "Currently Unavailable", yet subscriptions are still being offered and the app is still called the "Availability Tool".

What happens next, KVS?

KVS Tool Members will continue to enjoy its unsurpassed Award Availability Coverage, which includes 100% Award Coverage across all Star Alliance, OneWorld and SkyTeam airlines, as well as a variety of other useful features and functions for frequent travellers.

Actually, Regular Availability continues to be accessible via the KVS Tool Mobile Companion.

Indeed.

More accurately, it's called KVS Tool, although both names have been used interchangeably for many years now. Also, the term "Availability" encompasses all types of Availability (including Award & Upgrade Availability).

The same thing that has been happening over the last 10+ years, since the inception of the KVS Tool in 2004 -- its Members will continue to enjoy the benefits it provides.

The homepage is titled: KVS Availability Tool: Global Flight Availability, Award Availability, Fares, Timetables, Seat Maps.

KVS, your own screenshots suggest something else... Have a look here [deleted by moderator] And I have taken time stamped forensically clean screen shots of that link, so do not try to change them [deleted by moderator] again...

[deleted by moderator] How about KVS? Aren't you interested in a bit of FUN?

Most certainly -- KVS Tool supports I Class Award/Upgrade Availability on all 29 Star Alliance member carriers.

I've read through a little bit, but I just wanted to confirm that Fare Availability (e.g. F0 J0 .... Y0) no longer exists right?

I hadn't realized this change had occurred.

It's not in the desktop tool but is available via the mobile companion (kvstool/mc). The trouble I found is that the POS can vary and it's not clear what POS has been used to produce the results.

Issue with AC-Star Alliance method
 

When searching a date at the edge of the booking window (e.g. + 252 days) I sometimes (but not always) get an error stating I cannot search dates beyond date xxxx (where xxx is +255 days) when I am not searching beyond that date.

It's a limitation of the [Awards/AC-StarAlliance] Engine, which requires a return date for searches. Accordingly, the Maximum Date Range for that Method can vary from 352 to 355 days, depending on the Time Zones and routes involved.

We will be introducing a POS option for that Method in the next update, which should provide a work-around for this issue.

SQ website/KVS showing different data
 

Hi,

Just wondering if you can help me with something: The KVS tool is showng CM+, but I can't book this u/g via the SQ website. Is it worth calling and asking about it? I could change my flights to something more amenable to u/g otherwise...

TIA
PG

KVS (Availability) Tool is no longer reliable source of information...

CM are Medium Level Awards, not Upgrades.
For Business Upgrade availability, you need to look for CS Class.

Please consult the SQ section of the KVS Tool User Guide for details:
http://Help.KVSTool.com/#SQ

No HA availability, but available on AA.com??
 

I understand some of the issues re. screen scraping but as someone pointed out time is money and kvstool does a reasonable job of simplifying (or rather organizing) cumbersome multiple searches. I used it for a bunch of award searches recently and I think I could replicated the functionality using the underlying data sources that KVS itself uses; however the convenience and (once you get used to it) the (artificial) similarity of the views across multiple sources is useful.

So after a 2 month trial, I signed up for an annual subscription. A sucker perhaps but whatever.

Anyways...a question. KVStool claims award availability for Hawaiian is only available in the mobile companion. Per the guide, the econcomy class booking code is T.

Here's the output:
Another strange KVS quirk is that it sometimes converts San Jose CA (SJC) to SJO (San Juan Puerto Rico???) on output. However the flight number is a valid HA flight from San Jose. Ignoring this quirk, why is there no T availability?

AA.com shows at least one seat is available in Economy. (This is for Feb 25, 2015)

It might also be easier and faster to walk into a bank with a gun when looking for money vs. filling out a withdrawal slip. But that's theft and it's unarguably wrong. The data sources KVS uses generally pr:eek:hibit the use KVS makes of them. That's theft, too. It may be easier, but that doesn't make it right.

I'd have no problem paying for data if I knew it were legitimately obtained. In this case it is most clearly not and the funds paid are going into the pocket of someone who has taken it against the wishes of its owners/sources.

[deleted by moderator]

How is it prohibited? By the Terms of Service? Which part of ToS exactly does it violate? Most critics of KVS have said that ToS often forbid scraping, so I assume that is what you are saying. Scrapers generally read the information and store it which KVS does not do. KVS immediately presents the information in a different format without storing anything. Therefore KVS tool should be considered as an alternative browser.

If you want to argue that the ToS can forbid alternative presentation of a site, I am not sure that the law supports that*. And such a stance would mean that anybody who (for example) turns off of displaying images, changes the font size, uses a translation or similar widget, or has a disability that requires a special browser cannot access any such sites. And that they (or the vendors of those browsers) are also thieves.

(*Many users are not located in the US. Are you an expert in how those ToS apply in each country in the world? Also note that many of the websites are also not US websites.)

Presumably the providers of the data disagree with you...that being the reason the 'Availability' tab is no more and the POS of the mobile companion availability search changes from one unknown source to another.

Most of the websites the KVS unAvailability Tool scrapes are listed in the Wiki with the relevant ToS quoted.

Most ToS include terms that prohibit screen scraping, automated extraction/display of data, aggregate, modify of manipulate portions of content.

It is up to the end user to determine whether the KVS Availability Tool automates screen scraping by extracting specific sets of data, manipulates them and displays them in a completely different format to that intended by the website owner, if that violates the website(s) ToS, and if so whether they accept that.

This sounds exactly like reading KVS arguments. However, KVS will punish you if you breach KVS's TOS - done that and been punished. What I did? Discovered the sources, usernames and passwords of scraped sites for GTC method (no longer available) by monitoring network traffic on my router. So I actually even did not breach KVS's TOS since there is nothing about analysing your own router's traffic, but I was still punished for supposedly "reverse engineering" the tool.

Alternative browser would just display given information somehow differently - like you see subtle differences between IE, Firefox, Opera, Safari. All they do is interpret underlying html code. However, KVS does lots of "behind the scene work, including correlation, aggregation, temporary storage etc" before displaying (i.e. not immediately) it in completely different form.

This argument is completely incorrect. You are comparing apples and oranges here.

Exactly.

SQ upgrade
 

HI KVS, thanks for your quick response. Where/how do I check I or CS class? It doesn't show in the availability option in the mobile companion, nor does there seem to be any way of getting it out of the desktop version. I'm probably being dense here...

Yes, I am being dense. Just worked this out, sorry to bother you. Just a note though, I class doesn't show in the availability tool.

Hi,

When I can see redemption availability for BA flights on BA com, this doesn't seem to show up on the mobile companion site under the appropriate booking codes ie Z, U, P or X. Am I missing something?

Thanks.

KVS Tool and CX Companion awards
 

Hello, can I use KVStool to check for CX companion awards?

Thanks.

I've just talked to SQ and my travel agent, and CS doesn't map to I class--I was going to change a flight to get better upgrade availability, because KVS is showing CS+, but there isn't any upgrade availability on that flight. So my new question is is there any RELIABLE way to check this?

I think I'm correct in saying that the mobile companion, as with the previous PC screen Availability tab, did not show the award fare buckets for most (all?) airlines. This is why the Award Availability tab was there (and which is not replicated on the mobile companion.)

We are glad that you are enjoying the convenience, which is clearly real, unlike the imaginary "screen scraping".

Unfortunately, it has now been confirmed that HA is no longer providing its T Class Availability. The HA section of the KVS Tool User Guide has been updated accordingly.


The SJC airport code display issue in the MC has now been corrected.

As you have already discovered, SQ Award/Upgrade Availability is accessible via the [Awards] Tab in the main KVS Tool application.

SQ I Class is known as CS in the KVS Tool.

CS is, most definitely, I Class on SQ -- the data comes directly from SQ, so it is [technically] impossible for it not to match.

Are you trying to upgrade using mileage from SQ KF or some other FFP?

Award Availability requires the use of the Main KVS Tool Application.
Please consult the BA section of the KVS Tool User Guide for details:

http://Help.KVSTool.com/#BA

That is correct -- Mobile Companion is for Regular Availability only (with a few minor exceptions).

Y:rolleyes:u can deny it all you want but the KVS unavailability tool is pretty much the poster child of screen scraping applications.

When the sources of the ill-obtained data find out what is going on they shut off the data source. If they approved of the misuse of their data they would not do that.