Covid19: Swiss refunds after cancellation
May 17, 2020, 12:28 pm
#331
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 796
I would say not for our current generation, but those who are in their 60s-70s now are part of the generation where serving the military was something to be proud of and those who were ambitious usually climbed quite high in the structure and now its this 'cream of the crop' that is running companies and organisations...
May 18, 2020, 1:56 am
#332
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Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Gringolandia y LatinoAmerica a veces EU y Asia
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After 2 written communications with LX about my 2 A-class tickets to DEL, I didn’t get clarity from them as to when refunds will be processed. With that I went to Amex for a chargeback. Initially Amex caused some confusion, as they believed that EC261 doesn’t apply to Swiss. Once that was clarified, the chargeback was processed immediately.
I have now also filed a complaint about this with our national aviation authorities, as they will only take action towards an airline after multiple complaints about the same behavior.
For me, Swiss could have avoided this by
1) offering rebooking into same booking class without a 50% supplement
2) offering an attractive bonus to take a voucher and refund after the voucher expiry
3) giving clarity as to when the refund would be processed
Only by also filing a complaint with the national aviation authorities about this, there’s a chance that they will be reprimanded about this poor conduct and structural ignorance of EC261
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...ent_bodies.pdf
I have now also filed a complaint about this with our national aviation authorities, as they will only take action towards an airline after multiple complaints about the same behavior.
For me, Swiss could have avoided this by
1) offering rebooking into same booking class without a 50% supplement
2) offering an attractive bonus to take a voucher and refund after the voucher expiry
3) giving clarity as to when the refund would be processed
Only by also filing a complaint with the national aviation authorities about this, there’s a chance that they will be reprimanded about this poor conduct and structural ignorance of EC261
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...ent_bodies.pdf
I will not book with LX again. They are well known for a hostile attitude towards customers in good times as other say here. Now it's much worse. They are deliberately denying and disregarding applicable laws as they see fit. Many customers file chargebacks because LX tactics leave no other option.
I don't have such problem with UA or DL or even FR and AV (!) right now. Gentle push and in some cases, reminder of law obtains refunds each time.
As for LX why ever book with them again? If they are trying this hard to ensure nobody will see any money now and everyone must use chargeback then when they declare insolvency, we can all be sure that nobody will get any of their money back ever.
I believe it is not worth the risk of doing business with an entity that sees itself above the law - even ones that the Swiss government has signed on for.
Perhaps LX will collapse instantaneously just as Swiss International Airlines did in 2001. I stand clear in case...
May 18, 2020, 2:45 am
#333
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London
Programs: Hilton, IHG - BA, GA, LH, QR, SV, TK
Posts: 17,008
But if they were to go belly-up, like the last incarnation of a swiss national carrier, I believe payments for tickets would (eventually) be returned by credit card companies.
May 18, 2020, 8:29 am
#334
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: PDX
Programs: AS MVPG 75K, BA Silver, AC, AF/KL, AV, VS | Hilton, Hyatt, Marriott
Posts: 459
The travel agency has already sent TWO email requests to LX Travel Agency dept and has received squat.
A simple google led me to this screen on LX site.
https://www.swiss.com/ch/EN/customer...nsation-check#
It is not a way to file for refund, but still it said to check for eligibility.
I hope the German government's new stance to require LX refunding customer in order to get state aid would eventually make a difference.
Lesson to take away here is, whenever dealing with International airlines, don't ever give them any benefit of doubt because the full service ones sometimes behave worse than the LCCs. Also if the flights do not touch US soil (which would get US DOT protection), do not use reward program redemption (not mileage tickets but bank's reward program). Instead, pay with own credit card therefore should the airlines play foul, file a charge back prompto.
A simple google led me to this screen on LX site.
https://www.swiss.com/ch/EN/customer...nsation-check#
Checking a claim for compensation in the event of flight delay or cancellation
If your SWISS flight arrives more than three hours late or is cancelled, you can check your right to claim compensation by using this online form in accordance with Art. 7 EC No. 261/2004.It is not a way to file for refund, but still it said to check for eligibility.
I hope the German government's new stance to require LX refunding customer in order to get state aid would eventually make a difference.
Lesson to take away here is, whenever dealing with International airlines, don't ever give them any benefit of doubt because the full service ones sometimes behave worse than the LCCs. Also if the flights do not touch US soil (which would get US DOT protection), do not use reward program redemption (not mileage tickets but bank's reward program). Instead, pay with own credit card therefore should the airlines play foul, file a charge back prompto.
We are in the same situation, @Happy, and after I finished laughing hysterically from receiving such a deceptive response from Swiss, I realized that if I file a chargeback it probably would be denied since it's the bank's travel portal that did the booking. However, I'm so angry now that I will do so anyway and report back - I think a month is long enough of a wait. (Wait - is it a month?! What day is this of lockdown? Ugh.)
In the future, I'm following your advice, as well as never again booking cash fares on the Lufthansa Group of airlines.
May 19, 2020, 5:26 am
#335
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Programs: LHSen UA1K VAGold QFSilv HHon Diamond ShangrilaJade Radisson Gold SPG Gold Marriott Gold Hertz Presi
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Just for fun, I filled in the form to check my claim and I received a response. It was a template letter hoping that I understood their decision to suspend flights due to the corona-virus and therefore my EC261/2004 claim must be denied...
We are in the same situation, @Happy, and after I finished laughing hysterically from receiving such a deceptive response from Swiss, I realized that if I file a chargeback it probably would be denied since it's the bank's travel portal that did the booking. However, I'm so angry now that I will do so anyway and report back - I think a month is long enough of a wait. (Wait - is it a month?! What day is this of lockdown? Ugh.)
In the future, I'm following your advice, as well as never again booking cash fares on the Lufthansa Group of airlines.
We are in the same situation, @Happy, and after I finished laughing hysterically from receiving such a deceptive response from Swiss, I realized that if I file a chargeback it probably would be denied since it's the bank's travel portal that did the booking. However, I'm so angry now that I will do so anyway and report back - I think a month is long enough of a wait. (Wait - is it a month?! What day is this of lockdown? Ugh.)
In the future, I'm following your advice, as well as never again booking cash fares on the Lufthansa Group of airlines.
It really makes me think its time to ditch LH Gruppe and concentrate on Oneworld and Qatar Airways
May 19, 2020, 7:25 am
#336
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Location: DCA
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Posts: 50,262
That is a factual dispute between you and LH. The way to avoid these issues is to keep everything in writing and to submit copies with a chargeback request. This may all take an extra day or two because not all banks accept uploaded documents, but the time is worth it.
With the chargeback request, submit:
1. e-ticket receipt showing amount paid and routing with flight numbers.
2. Notice of cancellation from carrier (including screenshots if that is necessary).
3. Passenger request for a refund dated after #2 .
4. Air carrier response (or note that there has been no response).
In this particular matter, I would submit the above four documents to Amex as proof that the air carrier is incorrect. Not that you would, but for the broader audience, card issuers are not courts and they are not moved by hyperbole. Do not make assumptions and simply lay out the facts. Whether this is a fraud by the carrier or a mistake is irrelevant to whether you prevail and thus has no place in communications.
With the chargeback request, submit:
1. e-ticket receipt showing amount paid and routing with flight numbers.
2. Notice of cancellation from carrier (including screenshots if that is necessary).
3. Passenger request for a refund dated after #2 .
4. Air carrier response (or note that there has been no response).
In this particular matter, I would submit the above four documents to Amex as proof that the air carrier is incorrect. Not that you would, but for the broader audience, card issuers are not courts and they are not moved by hyperbole. Do not make assumptions and simply lay out the facts. Whether this is a fraud by the carrier or a mistake is irrelevant to whether you prevail and thus has no place in communications.
Last edited by Often1; May 19, 2020 at 8:02 am
May 19, 2020, 1:17 pm
#338
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: LHR
Programs: Accor PLT,Thai Silver, HH Dia, SPG Titanium (LT Gold), Aegean Gold, BA Silver
Posts: 5,120
I am sure this has been asked before but I can't find it. If I am willing to postpone LH travel for a canceled flight, I have decided I don't want a voucher since that still apparently expires on Dec 31, 2020.
I will just "postpone my travel plans" but do I do that by doing nothing, or do I have to cancel the flight online or via phone?
Thanks in advance for your help.
I will just "postpone my travel plans" but do I do that by doing nothing, or do I have to cancel the flight online or via phone?
Thanks in advance for your help.
SWISS extends free rebooking period
SWISS is even more responsive to their customers when it comes to rebooking. Anyone booking a flight in the next few weeks can do so without any worries.Passengers who wish to change their travel date can make a one-time, toll-free rebooking for the same route and the same class of travel.
The trip can also be postponed to the second half of 2021, so that nothing stands in the way of a relaxing summer holiday or attending an event on the new date next year. The new travel date must be before 31 December 2021.
This rule applies to tickets booked up to and including 30 June 2020 and with a confirmed travel date up to and including 30 April 2021. The rebooking must be made before the originally planned start of travel.
Previously, if a rebooking was made, the new trip had to start by 30 April 2021. This period has now been extended. SWISS is thus responding to the wish of many customers to be able to make their travel plans more flexible due to the current exceptional circumstances.
https://www.swiss.com/ch/en/various/breaking-news
Seems a bit contradictory as usual
https://swiss.flightvoucher.com/?lang=en
May 19, 2020, 1:51 pm
#339
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 796
For those who understand German, the mainstream media in CH is picking up on LX delay tactics. Let’s hope that the case against them picks up in the court of public opinion and that they can’t go on with the deception.
https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/kund...g_sm_medium=fb
https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/kund...g_sm_medium=fb
May 19, 2020, 2:45 pm
#340
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,762
That is a factual dispute between you and LH. The way to avoid these issues is to keep everything in writing and to submit copies with a chargeback request. This may all take an extra day or two because not all banks accept uploaded documents, but the time is worth it.
With the chargeback request, submit:
1. e-ticket receipt showing amount paid and routing with flight numbers.
2. Notice of cancellation from carrier (including screenshots if that is necessary).
3. Passenger request for a refund dated after #2 .
4. Air carrier response (or note that there has been no response).
In this particular matter, I would submit the above four documents to Amex as proof that the air carrier is incorrect. Not that you would, but for the broader audience, card issuers are not courts and they are not moved by hyperbole. Do not make assumptions and simply lay out the facts. Whether this is a fraud by the carrier or a mistake is irrelevant to whether you prevail and thus has no place in communications.
With the chargeback request, submit:
1. e-ticket receipt showing amount paid and routing with flight numbers.
2. Notice of cancellation from carrier (including screenshots if that is necessary).
3. Passenger request for a refund dated after #2 .
4. Air carrier response (or note that there has been no response).
In this particular matter, I would submit the above four documents to Amex as proof that the air carrier is incorrect. Not that you would, but for the broader audience, card issuers are not courts and they are not moved by hyperbole. Do not make assumptions and simply lay out the facts. Whether this is a fraud by the carrier or a mistake is irrelevant to whether you prevail and thus has no place in communications.
I fully understand that if Swiss does not refund to Chase Reward card, UR could not refund the points to me - this is the same situation with Princess cruises right now.
However I do believe if one paid with own credit card, a dispute should be successful - with the screen shot on PNR no longer pulled up the reservation on LX site BEFORE the travel date, as well as LX's own travel advisory on flights were canceled, that covered the travel date.
All credit card disputes on the cruise lines not refunding the canceled cruises, have been reported being ruled in cardholders favor - currently it seems the ONLY WAY to get back people's own money with some are truly sizable as in the amount of several tens of thousands. I have seen one is over $30K and very many are over $10K. Who would prefer to let cruise lines sit on that kind of money without knowing when they could cruise again? 2021 seems the earliest but with many people are retirees in the high risk aged groups...
May 19, 2020, 4:11 pm
#341
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 796
This confusion arises because your bank is not properly explaining the chargeback process.
A. A merchant (Swiss via its acquirer bank) is presenting a charge to you (via your issuing bank);
B. You (the cardholder) are requesting a chargeback through your issueing bank;
C. The issueing bank is receiving the money from the acquirer bank;
So far so good! Usually there is no step D., because a shaddy merchant won't attempt to continue from this point on. Unfortunately, Swiss is trying everything (illegal) to hold on to their cash, so Swiss is not giving up and is continueing.
D. The merchant does not agree with the chargeback and is "representing" the charge to you again; Basically your card is charged again; Hence, the issueing bank is debiting your credit card account again; This step D process is called representment.
If you as a cardholder want to dispute this representment, your card issuer is facing lots of paperwork. Hence, by default the card issuer is trying to dissuade you from continueing from here to step E.;
E. You are requesting a chargeback of the representment; This is what you need to instruct your bank to do;
F.->G.->H. describes the disputes process by the credit card provider (Visa, MC, Amex);
A. A merchant (Swiss via its acquirer bank) is presenting a charge to you (via your issuing bank);
B. You (the cardholder) are requesting a chargeback through your issueing bank;
C. The issueing bank is receiving the money from the acquirer bank;
So far so good! Usually there is no step D., because a shaddy merchant won't attempt to continue from this point on. Unfortunately, Swiss is trying everything (illegal) to hold on to their cash, so Swiss is not giving up and is continueing.
D. The merchant does not agree with the chargeback and is "representing" the charge to you again; Basically your card is charged again; Hence, the issueing bank is debiting your credit card account again; This step D process is called representment.
If you as a cardholder want to dispute this representment, your card issuer is facing lots of paperwork. Hence, by default the card issuer is trying to dissuade you from continueing from here to step E.;
E. You are requesting a chargeback of the representment; This is what you need to instruct your bank to do;
F.->G.->H. describes the disputes process by the credit card provider (Visa, MC, Amex);
Have others who have done chargeback experienced any pushback from LH Group? I am thinking, they probably have so many chargeback requests, it will be a test. If they still manage to deal with each case within 45 days and refuse, then the whole 'sorry we can't process refunds until September due to the high volume' is utter BS (which we already know)
If anything, customers doing chargebacks are helping lighten their workload right?
(will they give miles for our contribution to helping them?!) lol
May 20, 2020, 5:11 am
#342
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London
Programs: Hilton, IHG - BA, GA, LH, QR, SV, TK
Posts: 17,008
That is a factual dispute between you and LH. The way to avoid these issues is to keep everything in writing and to submit copies with a chargeback request. This may all take an extra day or two because not all banks accept uploaded documents, but the time is worth it.
With the chargeback request, submit:
1. e-ticket receipt showing amount paid and routing with flight numbers.
2. Notice of cancellation from carrier (including screenshots if that is necessary).
3. Passenger request for a refund dated after #2 .
4. Air carrier response (or note that there has been no response).
In this particular matter, I would submit the above four documents to Amex as proof that the air carrier is incorrect. Not that you would, but for the broader audience, card issuers are not courts and they are not moved by hyperbole. Do not make assumptions and simply lay out the facts. Whether this is a fraud by the carrier or a mistake is irrelevant to whether you prevail and thus has no place in communications.
With the chargeback request, submit:
1. e-ticket receipt showing amount paid and routing with flight numbers.
2. Notice of cancellation from carrier (including screenshots if that is necessary).
3. Passenger request for a refund dated after #2 .
4. Air carrier response (or note that there has been no response).
In this particular matter, I would submit the above four documents to Amex as proof that the air carrier is incorrect. Not that you would, but for the broader audience, card issuers are not courts and they are not moved by hyperbole. Do not make assumptions and simply lay out the facts. Whether this is a fraud by the carrier or a mistake is irrelevant to whether you prevail and thus has no place in communications.
So, yes, I'd up the need for a screenshot of the reservation page showing cancelled flights.
May 20, 2020, 6:14 am
#343
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: GVA
Programs: A3 *G, LX *G, AF *S
Posts: 761
I found this webpage which could help with cancelled flight confirmations:
https://swiss.flight-status.info/
While it lets you select only data from yesterday to tomorrow, you can enter the address as follows with flight number and date: https://swiss.flight-status.info/lx-1822/2020-03-19
to check whether the flight was cancelled or not (by the airline).
https://swiss.flight-status.info/
While it lets you select only data from yesterday to tomorrow, you can enter the address as follows with flight number and date: https://swiss.flight-status.info/lx-1822/2020-03-19
to check whether the flight was cancelled or not (by the airline).
Last edited by Carpacchio; May 20, 2020 at 2:29 pm
May 20, 2020, 2:25 pm
#344
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 796
I found this webpage who could help with cancelled flight confirmations:
https://swiss.flight-status.info/
While it lets you select only data from yesterday to tomorrow, you can enter the address as follows with flight number and date: https://swiss.flight-status.info/lx-1822/2020-03-19
to check whether the flight was cancelled or not (by the airline).
https://swiss.flight-status.info/
While it lets you select only data from yesterday to tomorrow, you can enter the address as follows with flight number and date: https://swiss.flight-status.info/lx-1822/2020-03-19
to check whether the flight was cancelled or not (by the airline).
May 20, 2020, 3:25 pm
#345
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Programs: LHSen UA1K VAGold QFSilv HHon Diamond ShangrilaJade Radisson Gold SPG Gold Marriott Gold Hertz Presi
Posts: 1,049