Jan 29, 2014, 2:36 pm
Last edit by: texashoser
Beginning July 1, 2014, Southwest Airlines will operate daily, nonstop flights between:
For international bookings, only ATL, BOS, BWI, MCO, or PIT can serve as the origination/destination airport. Separate bookings are necessary if positioning flights are required.
UPDATE: Starting August 5, 2014, more cities via staggered schedule will be added as allowed origination/destination airports. The schedule is as follows:
Aug. 5 BDL, DCA, DTW, HOU, LGA, RDU, SDF
Aug. 10 SNA, MKE
Aug. 19 BNA, ORF, PHL, SFO, SJC, SMF, STL
Aug. 26 ALB, BUF, DAY, IND, MCI, MSP, OAK, ROC
Sept. 16 CMH, GRR, ISP, LAX, MHT, PVD, PWM
Sept. 30 DSM, LAS, OKC, PDX, SEA
Oct. 5 ABQ, CAK, CLE, DAL, OMA, SLC
Oct. 28 BOI, FNT, GEG, RNO
Nov. 2 AUS, MDW, SAT
Nov. 11 AMA, CLT, GSP, MSY, ONT
Nov. 18 BHM, CHS, FLL, JAX, LIT, PBI, PHX, RSW, SAN, SJU, TPA, TUS
Dec. 16 CRP, ECP, HRL, ICT, MAF, MEM, PNS, RIC
- Atlanta and Aruba, and Montego Bay
- Baltimore/Washington and Aruba, Nassau, and (twice daily) Montego Bay
- Orlando and (Saturday only) Aruba, and Montego Bay
For international bookings, only ATL, BOS, BWI, MCO, or PIT can serve as the origination/destination airport. Separate bookings are necessary if positioning flights are required.
UPDATE: Starting August 5, 2014, more cities via staggered schedule will be added as allowed origination/destination airports. The schedule is as follows:
Aug. 5 BDL, DCA, DTW, HOU, LGA, RDU, SDF
Aug. 10 SNA, MKE
Aug. 19 BNA, ORF, PHL, SFO, SJC, SMF, STL
Aug. 26 ALB, BUF, DAY, IND, MCI, MSP, OAK, ROC
Sept. 16 CMH, GRR, ISP, LAX, MHT, PVD, PWM
Sept. 30 DSM, LAS, OKC, PDX, SEA
Oct. 5 ABQ, CAK, CLE, DAL, OMA, SLC
Oct. 28 BOI, FNT, GEG, RNO
Nov. 2 AUS, MDW, SAT
Nov. 11 AMA, CLT, GSP, MSY, ONT
Nov. 18 BHM, CHS, FLL, JAX, LIT, PBI, PHX, RSW, SAN, SJU, TPA, TUS
Dec. 16 CRP, ECP, HRL, ICT, MAF, MEM, PNS, RIC
International Bookings Live on Southwest.com
Jan 29, 2014, 12:59 am
#76
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 413
If you look at the Fare Breakdown comparison I posted above, you see that -- apparently -- Southwest is also "eating" the excise taxes (?) on international. (I assume the $35 "excise tax" listed is actually the $17.50/Head International Arrival/Departure Tax.)
I find it hard to believe that Southwest is going to "eat" $35 per r/t for all international points bookings.
(Also, they're apparently "eating" the Passenger Facility Charge?)
I find it hard to believe that Southwest is going to "eat" $35 per r/t for all international points bookings.
(Also, they're apparently "eating" the Passenger Facility Charge?)
Jan 29, 2014, 7:15 am
#77
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,813
If you look at the Fare Breakdown comparison I posted above, you see that -- apparently -- Southwest is also "eating" the excise taxes (?) on international. (I assume the $35 "excise tax" listed is actually the $17.50/Head International Arrival/Departure Tax.)
I find it hard to believe that Southwest is going to "eat" $35 per r/t for all international points bookings.
(Also, they're apparently "eating" the Passenger Facility Charge?)
I find it hard to believe that Southwest is going to "eat" $35 per r/t for all international points bookings.
(Also, they're apparently "eating" the Passenger Facility Charge?)
Southwest is not "eating" anything except possibly in the very short term. The change is effectively neutral as Southwest in addition to reducing the number of points needed to book flight has simultaneously reduced the number of points awarded for taking a flight. Many people have "burned" more points for flights in the future than the new rules but many people who paid cash for tickets in the future will also receive fewer points. It seems likely that the two buckets effectively cancel each other.
There is a one time increase in existing points that partly offsets the coming decrease in the value of points.
Jan 29, 2014, 8:24 am
#78
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Chicagoland, IL, USA
Programs: WN CP, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 14,193
Southwest is not "eating" anything except possibly in the very short term. The change is effectively neutral as Southwest in addition to reducing the number of points needed to book flight has simultaneously reduced the number of points awarded for taking a flight.
You are ignoring the people (like me) who get immensely more WN points from credit cards, hotel transfers, etc. than from flying. We are apparently getting a break (after of course being scrod in the 60 => 70 deal).
Jan 29, 2014, 8:57 am
#80
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,813
You're right. This increases the value of points not earned by flying.
It also increases the cost of tier status by making TQP more expensive.
In all a net gain for non-flyers and possibly driving more Early Bird purchases in the future by reducing the number of A-Listers next year.
Jan 29, 2014, 9:03 am
#81
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: PHL
Posts: 656
Actually, does anyone know if int'l itineraries are refundable at all? When I book a domestic ticket with points, it says, "Nonrefundable unless purchased with Points". When I am booking int'l, it says, "Nonrefundable". Hmmm...
Jan 29, 2014, 10:05 am
#82
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,813
You could call and ask, but it looks to me like they making this up as they go along.
Jan 29, 2014, 3:33 pm
#83
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,286
Southwest is not "eating" anything except possibly in the very short term. The change is effectively neutral as Southwest in addition to reducing the number of points needed to book flight has simultaneously reduced the number of points awarded for taking a flight. Many people have "burned" more points for flights in the future than the new rules but many people who paid cash for tickets in the future will also receive fewer points. It seems likely that the two buckets effectively cancel each other.
There is a one time increase in existing points that partly offsets the coming decrease in the value of points.
There is a one time increase in existing points that partly offsets the coming decrease in the value of points.
Do they know what they're doing?
Jan 29, 2014, 4:57 pm
#84
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,975
Presumably 7.5% of a fare of zero is zero, so nothing to pay there. I'm looking at a receipt for a transatlantic award booking I've done on UA, and the only U.S. charges are:
U.S. Customs User Fee: 5.50
U.S. Immigration User Fee: 7.00
U.S. APHIS User Fee: 5.00
September 11th Security Fee: 7.50
which looks similar to the WN international receipt, without that int'l arrival/departure tax. Does the government not collect that on free trips? The same as on domestic awards, where the PFC and segment fee are not collected, but the security fee is. In fact I have a WN award receipt saying:
Base Fare $ 0.00
Excise Taxes $ 0.00
Segment Fee$ 0.00
Passenger Facility Charge $ 0.00
September 11th Security Fee $ 5.00
Total Air Cost $ 5.00
So indeed, does the government not collect those zero amounts on free trips?
U.S. Customs User Fee: 5.50
U.S. Immigration User Fee: 7.00
U.S. APHIS User Fee: 5.00
September 11th Security Fee: 7.50
which looks similar to the WN international receipt, without that int'l arrival/departure tax. Does the government not collect that on free trips? The same as on domestic awards, where the PFC and segment fee are not collected, but the security fee is. In fact I have a WN award receipt saying:
Base Fare $ 0.00
Excise Taxes $ 0.00
Segment Fee$ 0.00
Passenger Facility Charge $ 0.00
September 11th Security Fee $ 5.00
Total Air Cost $ 5.00
So indeed, does the government not collect those zero amounts on free trips?
Jan 29, 2014, 5:08 pm
#85
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,286
Very interesting. I hadn't considered the possibility that the government would forego collecting taxes on "free" flights, but that may in fact be the case.
Source: IRS Air Transportation Excise Tax - Audit Technique Guide
Meaning… Southwest may actually know what they're doing. Color me shocked.
Edit: Reading that IRS site a little further, it does appear that the government may get some percentage of the value of the miles/points from the issuer as a way of recovering at portion of those taxes. Or maybe I'm wrong… I certainly am not a tax lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.
No Amount Paid for Air Transportation
As a general rule, all amounts paid for the air transportation of persons are subject to tax. Where no amount is paid for air transportation, such as when the transportation is obtained by the redemption of frequent flyer miles, the transaction is not subject to the percentage tax, the domestic segment tax, or international facilities tax. Cite: Rev. Rul. 84-12, 1984-1 C.B. 211. Similarly, where an airline provides its employees with free air transportation, the tax does not apply. However, if the employee pays any amount for the flight, the amount paid is subject to tax. Cite: Rev. Rul. 70-381, 1970-2 C.B. 270.
As a general rule, all amounts paid for the air transportation of persons are subject to tax. Where no amount is paid for air transportation, such as when the transportation is obtained by the redemption of frequent flyer miles, the transaction is not subject to the percentage tax, the domestic segment tax, or international facilities tax. Cite: Rev. Rul. 84-12, 1984-1 C.B. 211. Similarly, where an airline provides its employees with free air transportation, the tax does not apply. However, if the employee pays any amount for the flight, the amount paid is subject to tax. Cite: Rev. Rul. 70-381, 1970-2 C.B. 270.
Meaning… Southwest may actually know what they're doing. Color me shocked.
Edit: Reading that IRS site a little further, it does appear that the government may get some percentage of the value of the miles/points from the issuer as a way of recovering at portion of those taxes. Or maybe I'm wrong… I certainly am not a tax lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.
Last edited by ursine1; Jan 29, 2014 at 5:11 pm Reason: Added info
Jan 29, 2014, 5:31 pm
#86
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Programs: AC SE100K, F9 100k, NK Gold, UA *S, Hyatt Glob, Bonvoy Titanium
Posts: 5,207
Southwest is considering any point redemption as "award travel", resulting in a tax $0. (a segment fee is due but no 7.5% excise tax)
info is here:
and from the IRS here.
Mileage Awards...are not subject to the tax to the extent those miles will be awarded in connection with the purchase of taxable transportation.
This means that Chase pays an excise tax when buying a customer a points award, But Southwest does not have to pay any Excise tax when its own customers redeem the points they have earned through flying or any other source.
It was MUCH more profitable to Southwest to charge customers the higher amount of points (107.5% of "base fare"), despite them having to submit $0.00 in percentage excise tax.
Jan 29, 2014, 5:43 pm
#87
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,286
I think they do!!
Southwest is considering any point redemption as "award travel", resulting in a tax $0. (a segment fee is due but no 7.5% excise tax)
info is here:
and from the IRS here.
Mileage Awards...are not subject to the tax to the extent those miles will be awarded in connection with the purchase of taxable transportation.
This means that Chase pays an excise tax when buying a customer a points award, But Southwest does not have to pay any Excise tax when its own customers redeem the points they have earned through flying or any other source.
It was MUCH more profitable to Southwest to charge customers the higher amount of points (107.5% of "base fare"), despite them having to submit $0.00 in percentage excise tax.
Southwest is considering any point redemption as "award travel", resulting in a tax $0. (a segment fee is due but no 7.5% excise tax)
info is here:
and from the IRS here.
Mileage Awards...are not subject to the tax to the extent those miles will be awarded in connection with the purchase of taxable transportation.
This means that Chase pays an excise tax when buying a customer a points award, But Southwest does not have to pay any Excise tax when its own customers redeem the points they have earned through flying or any other source.
It was MUCH more profitable to Southwest to charge customers the higher amount of points (107.5% of "base fare"), despite them having to submit $0.00 in percentage excise tax.
OLD: Charge 7.5% on points redemption, grant points on 7.5% paid cash. Excise tax paid: $0
New: Don't charge 7.5% on points redemption, don't grant points on 7.5% paid cash. Excise tax paid: $0
Jan 29, 2014, 5:49 pm
#88
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,813
The excise tax is a tangible thing that has to be paid by Southwest to the federal government. In a cash booking, that is paid by the flyer, and no points are earned on that portion (7.5% of base fare for domestic, $17.50 o/w for international). On a points booking, Southwest doesn't charge the flyer, so they themselves have to pay the government (although they also now don't grant points for that portion, as they did in the past). The value of a real dollar -- the kind used to pay the tax -- is significantly higher than the value of the points previously awarded. So, while it's 'wash" in the long run for flyers, this change represents more real costs for Southwest.
Do they know what they're doing?
Do they know what they're doing?
They have been paying the tax all along, just like they pay pilots, jet fuel and all other costs. There is not increase in cost to Southwest.
Jan 29, 2014, 5:52 pm
#89
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,286
Jan 29, 2014, 6:03 pm
#90
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: SNA
Programs: Bonvoy LTTE/AMB, AmEx Plat, National EE, WN A-List, CLEAR+, Covid-19
Posts: 4,967
Are these on FL metal or WN metal? I transferred a bunch of points this summer to FL to put a few of us LAX-ATL-AUA and back in J, and really couldn't see myself doing that in all-Y seats.