ursine1

FYI: Nevada's mask requirement went into effect June 26 -- just five days ago (and after the period referenced in the article). And while it could be viewed as a "slant," the data used was state vs state. A more accurate comparison would be to break down each state's total population by percentage covered by a mask mandate, but that's obviously a much harder data set to collect.

Financial incentives to hospitals treating COVID patients are minor, apply only to Medicare, and were a result of the CARES act, meant as an offset for loss of revenue from elective services. It's unlikely medical professionals are risking their licenses to falsify reports. And cause of death is usually established by a coroner, not a medical provider. While it's true that there are many problems with the reporting of COVID-19 data, evidence suggests that, if anything, deaths are being under reported. Here's some context (although a bit dated, it's from April -- some minor things have changed since publication, but not the overall determination):

Fact Check: Hospitals get paid more to list patients as COVID-19

I find the 84% rise in cases in states where masks aren't required to be the more interesting statistic. But, as you've suggested, those numbers would likely be very different if the data were (even slightly) more current.

I agree that "mask rules are failing," only in that ignorant or misguided people still refuse to wear masks, and wear them properly. There's an overwhelming amount of evidence that masks, combined with proper hygiene and social distancing, are an effective tool at reducing viral spread. Getting everyone to accept that fact, and more importantly change their behavior, is perhaps an insurmountable challenge.

Unfortunately, you are 100% right in that we will see what happens.

rsteinmetz70112

I have noticed an increase in mask wearing in public after the recent spike in cases.

Zorak

Seems statistically improbable. More likely people you encountered are unaware that they know someone who has had CV.

Also, (although it was a while ago) you've met me in person, does that count? I haven't had it but a close friend of mine has, and someone I went to college with died of CV-related complications (I'm in my late 40s; he was in much better shape than my middle-aged-blob self). I have friends and co-workers who have elderly parents who've died from it too.

I mean I'm sure you can get the number down to zero if you throw enough qualifiers on it and narrow down what "counts".

Maybe they are aware that it could still happen to them?

https://www.sfgate.com/science/artic...g-15347792.php

interesting to note the reports from people in their 20s and 30s who were in good health.

kennycrudup

"Seems", huh? Or is it just that this thing is nowhere near as pervasive a killer as the media would have us believe?
Doubtful, the hysteria is high, and anyone who's actually had it- and more-importantly, gotten sick from it, has undoubtedly let smeone know about it. But Occam's Razor suggests that they were simply asymptomatic, as the data is showing that this thing isn't the Deadly Killer it's been made out to be.

Well, congrats. You're now- of what's gotta be at least two hundred people I've spoken to, mind you- the third person who's got 2nd-hand knowledge of someone with CV. Third. We can put 75 people in a room and at least two will share a birthday, but I'm getting a trickle of CV infection data from 3rd hand sources. Last Winter, 3 of my co-workers had the flu- so now I'm at parity with that.

And every day we hear about more and more public figures who test positive for CV and ... nothing else after that. (Or maybe I've missed the funerals for Tom Hanks/Idris Elba/Patrick Ewing/Vernon Davis/... families? I've been busy lately ...)

https://www.sfgate.com/science/artic...g-15347792.php

Lot of "may"s in that article, huh?

78% of of the people dying from this in the state of CA (and I can't imagine we're so different than the rest of the US) are > 65. Most of the dead (according to the CDC) also have co-morbidity issues. We make everyone wear masks because we can't tell who's got this thing and who doesn't (unlike say, the flu, Ebola or even the common cold). Yet we treat this thing like it's some deathly killer, far out of proportion to the actual population at large.

I'm just waiting for some nation/state to come to its senses and realize that CV will be with us forever, and make some hard choices WRT to the small percentage of the vulnerable population and realize they have a bigger population and a bigger economy to take care of and start to put things back to normal, with the hope that other nations will soon follow suit and this dumpster-fire that is 2020 can get back to normal.

... and the most disconcerting thing about is is I'm beginning to think, based on the how many people are spreading fear that's not borne out by the actual statistics of the disease itself, that some people are rooting for it to be deadly, rooting for it to F up everyone's lives and the world's economy, rooting for it to be pervasive- I just don't get it.

smmrfld

Truer words have never been written.

toomanybooks

Only until the day after the election.

lougord99

Typical gross reaction to people who disagree with you.

Kevin AA

They're miserable people whose gloom-and-doom outlook on life would normally be ignored, but now they get a platform to spew their venom. It's maddening.

storewanderer

They will shut up in November, depending on the outcome of the US election. It will either magically disappear or they will double down again for 4 more years.

Meanwhile cases keep hitting records in places with these "mask in all public places requirements" - every day. Does not look like these masks are helping at all. Given cases are hitting records I am actually starting to wonder if the masks are causing more cases. I am confused a little as certain countries in Asia with mask requirements, cases got under control (like Taiwan)- but they provided N95 masks to everyone, had dispensing stations all over, etc. Also the folks in Taiwan were not out in the streets yelling/screaming for the first couple weeks of June, not going to bars and restaurants in close quarters with others with masks off drinking, talking loudly, etc. So is it the masks that help or is it people being disciplined and keeping to themselves? Sorry mask police, but your mask in all public places rules are not helping in the US and may even be hurting. Again I do support mask requirements in things like airplanes or medical facilities.

ursine1

The ability to almost put 2 + 2 together, but then at the last minute come up with 5 is simply astonishing.

And the belief that anyone is actually "rooting for it to be deadly" is just tragic.

Here's a thought: Perhaps masks "aren't working" because idiots refuse to use them.

ursine1

Some early thoughts on how things went wrong in California. A more complete picture will emerge over the next 1-2 weeks.

‘They feel invincible’: how California’s coronavirus plan went wrong

Zorak

I was being polite. It seems more likely that there are problems with your data-gathering technique (could be entirely unintentional) than that your statement is literally true.

For example...

Uh, no, you said you hadn't spoken with anyone who knew anyone who had it. I know at least two people who have had it, one of whom died from it. Dismissing this as 2nd-hand knowledge (it's not, it's first-hand knowledge, 2nd-hand experience, but that's beside the point) is moving the goalposts. So to me that makes your claim suspect, or as I said in my reply above, "I mean I'm sure you can get the number down to zero if you throw enough qualifiers on it and narrow down what "counts"."

I can't *prove* you're wrong of course, but you should consider that some people might be embarrassed to tell others they got it, and some people might accurately and honestly have told you "no" they didn't know anyone at the time you spoke but since then they do.

No, there are lots of "mays" in a single Tweet in the article that they used as the "pull quote" -- did you read past that or did you simply stop after seeing what you wanted to see?

Here, I'll help you out (for context, reminder that this was in response to Kenny's question "Why are young, healthy people still afraid of CV?!"):

"I'm currently in the hospital after having a heart attack caused by clotting that resulted from COVID 19. I have a stent in my heart and need to wear a heart monitoring vest at all times. Now I face months of recovery including physical and occupational therapy. I'm only 29."

"I’m a nurse on a COVID floor, I caught it. I am a relatively healthy 24-year-old and could barely walk up a half flight of stairs. My blood pressure skyrocketed, chest pain was debilitating. I’m 8 weeks out and still feeling the chest pain and shortness of breath. This is no joke."

"I had COVID for over 60 days. I’m 33 years old, was super healthy, pescatarian, 125 pounds, and ran and did yoga every day. I couldn’t walk for two weeks besides a couple steps. It was the worst illness of my life."

"On right, lung of worlds first lung transplant for COVID— on left normal lungs. She is 20 pic.twitter.com/bwWvfdyIJt"

"My coworker — an otherwise totally healthy 30-year-old — is still having issues breathing, two full months later."

"I’m a healthy, active 23 year-old and I still have significant lung damage two months after I’ve “recovered.”"

"Worst sickness ever. Left me and my husband sick and weak for almost two months. Almost killed my perfectly healthy 41-year-old nephew. Took down a 36-year-old friend with two bouts of pneumonia. Wear a freaking mask, people. How hard is that?"

None of those had the word "may" other than the one you cherry-picked. (Well ok, there were two that talked about the month of May...)

Sure, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data", and these are people who chose to respond to the tweet so there is selection bias, and maybe there is some as-yet-unidentified common theme genetic or otherwise that causes some people to breeze through it unaffected while other 20-40 year olds have the reported problems. Until that's well-defined though, I mean, you're free to be cavalier or reckless about it, but that wouldn't be my choice.

Why does it necessarily have to be a magic bullet? Maybe no single mitigation measure is 100% effective but together they cut the risk drastically? e.g. in the abstract, if two mechanisms act independently, even if they are each only 80% effective individually, together they are 96% effective if you combine the two -- the failure rate is 0.2 * 0.2 = 0.04. (That's just an example I pulled out of the air, I don't pretend to know what the actual numbers are. If the mechanisms of operation are correlated then the effect isn't as strong of course.)

I suspect there is an additional factor in that, although Taiwan is democratic and more freedom-oriented than its larger neighbor, the people there still understand the concept banding together for the good of the community.

It also has the advantage of being geographically smaller, so it may be able to implement restrictions/solutions that wouldn't scale up to the size of the US.

nsx

In the interest of keeping all the mask discussion in the Peanut Gallery, I will post a serious factual question here:

How strictly are Southwest’s flight attendants currently enforcing the mask requirement? In particular will someone who fears being near people not wearing masks be better off flying Southwest or Alaska or American or United?

As flight attendants say, we have choices when we fly. I would prefer to put my relatives on a flight where masks are required in practice rather than only in platitude. Others have different preferences but that is mine.

storewanderer

I don't know what you are talking about. I have spent a lot of time in CA areas with mandatory masks the past couple months, CA areas where masks went mandatory by governor order, and in NV where masks are mandatory by government order. 99% of people are complying and wearing masks- not always properly, but at least wearing them. I have not personally witnessed any conflicts anywhere about masks. I'm not happy about wearing a mask and I suspect many others aren't either but it isn't the store employee's or security guard's personal rule and the store employee or security guard who is wearing a mask for their 8 hour shift is a lot more miserable than I am wearing it for 10 minutes while I am inside the store.

As far as rooting for it to be deadly, I agree it is absolutely disgusting certain parties appear to be rooting for it to be deadly, but to say it isn't happening, it appears you must not watch much US cable news. It is probably best to not watch much of it, but the rooting is definitely happening and there are bad actors rooting for it to be deadly so they can use it to justify additional power.

storewanderer

I would think the open seating arrangement on Southwest would at least make it easier to GET AWAY if you are near people without masks, improperly wearing masks, or frequently removing masks to talk/eat/drink.

No need to ask permission or justify if you want to move to a different open seat on Southwest... no confrontation. Just "oh I wanted to move." Period. The end. Not like the other airlines where moving from your "assigned" seat is often frowned upon, permission must be granted, etc. unless on a very empty flight. And in which case you want to move because "others around me are not wearing a mask properly" then that opens whole can of worms the mask topic opens up online. Sounds like hell. At least moving seats is easy on Southwest. Plus talking seems to spread/catch COVID so minimizing interaction with others is very important.