|
Originally Posted by RichardKenner
(Post 16584549)
But I'm also waiting for Bart to address the issue of tight skirts to clarify his statement about precisely what clothing people can be required to remove. And that's the other problem here, because the SOP is secret, there's no way for people to know what's appropriate and what's not and so no way for most of the inappropriate behavior to be reported.
I wondered when this would come up, If you wear a tight skirt and have been selected for whatever reason to have a standard pat down, you will be asked to change clothes into something that will allow the patdown OR you can go to private screening and don a paper drape and raise the skirt high enough to allow a standard patdown. |
Originally Posted by Bart
(Post 16582843)
For the record, there is nothing in the screening SOP that warrants for anyone to remove clothing with the exception of outer wear such as sweaters, jackets, coats, etc. provided that the individual has other clothing underneath such as a blouse or similar appropriate attire. If any TSO instructs you to remove clothing such as a blouse or pants, DEMAND to see the supervisor and/or your airline representative immediately.
Perhaps I've been jaded by the nature of many comments made in this forum which are filled with hyperbole and exaggeration that IF one legitimate claim is made that I am prone to not believe it. And I find it extremely difficult that any checkpoint supervisor would allow such a thing to occur. However, the SOP has pretty specific language, so I'm prone to remain skeptical that this event ever occurred. That's my two cents. 1. (dead horse alert) Appeals to the SOP are absolutely worthless since it is super-secret information. If a TSO demands that I "bend over and spread 'em" he can claim that the SOP allows it and I am not allowed to see the SOP to confirm for myself. Even though you say "there is nothing in the screening SOP that warrants for anyone to remove clothing ..." I doubt you would be willing to back that claim up by publishing the relavent portion of the SOP. As long as the SOP remains secret the passenger is totally at the mercy of any rogue TSO at any time. 2. Personally, I too find it difficult to believe a supervisor would tolerate such behavior. However; I also find it hard to believe one would tolerate theft on a day to day basis. And yet hardly a week can go by without another news report of theft by TSOs, often with the connivence of supervisors. Although I can't read the super-secret SOP I would expect that it has nothing in it to warrant theft just as it supposedly has nothing to warrant strip searches. If we can accept the undeniable fact that there is widespread theft by TSOs, then surely we can accept that there are also other violations of the SOP. |
Originally Posted by exbayern
(Post 16584582)
Not Bart, but from another TSO: (bolding mine)
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trave...al-search.html |
There may be nothing in the SOP about removing clothing, but many women, including me and I believe VelvetJones, have reported being ordered to remove the only item of clothing we were wearing on our upper bodies at the checkpoint, which would mean passing through the WTMD wearing only a bra on the upper body.
That is just one example of what may be SOP not being followed. A screener did appear here last year and said that she uses common sense and doesn't make women remove light weight cardigans, either. If I recall correctly, there was some dispute about this and she removed all her posts. I can assure you that the reaction from the TSO when I refused to remove my only item of clothing was not pleasant (at least at SAT the female assist who was called did say that her male counterparts there were idiots and let me go without any further harassment) |
Originally Posted by Bart
(Post 16584395)
Nor have I asked anyone else to rely on that. What I said is that I base my judgment on more than just one solitary claim in a message board. I was asked why I'm so skeptical, and I spelled it out. These things are usually corroborated by something else and there's absolutely NOTHING about this incident or ANYTHING resembling this incident.
There's no smoke. As for fixing it so that it is not even a possibility, I don't know what you expect. It simply isn't procedure. "Fixing it" means addressing the current situation where you have a private room and under duress have passengers submit to your procedures. The passengers do not know what the procedures and limits are and this makes them susceptible to whatever might be forced on them at that time when they are vulnerable and desperate to make their flight (see the legal definition of "duresss"). |
Originally Posted by Bart
(Post 16584630)
The SOP does not require a passenger to strip in front of a TSO under any circumstances. There is an alternative for women in tight skirts, but no woman is required to remove the skirt in the presence of a TSO nor is any passenger required to expose himself/herself to a TSO in order to clear security.
that makes me feel soo much better. |
Originally Posted by T-the-B
(Post 16584621)
That sounds pretty reasonable. I'd like to offer two comments:
1. (dead horse alert) Appeals to the SOP are absolutely worthless since it is super-secret information. If a TSO demands that I "bend over and spread 'em" he can claim that the SOP allows it and I am not allowed to see the SOP to confirm for myself. Even though you say "there is nothing in the screening SOP that warrants for anyone to remove clothing ..." I doubt you would be willing to back that claim up by publishing the relavent portion of the SOP. As long as the SOP remains secret the passenger is totally at the mercy of any rogue TSO at any time.
Originally Posted by T-the-B
(Post 16584621)
2. Personally, I too find it difficult to believe a supervisor would tolerate such behavior. However; I also find it hard to believe one would tolerate theft on a day to day basis. And yet hardly a week can go by without another news report of theft by TSOs, often with the connivence of supervisors. Although I can't read the super-secret SOP I would expect that it has nothing in it to warrant theft just as it supposedly has nothing to warrant strip searches. If we can accept the undeniable fact that there is widespread theft by TSOs, then surely we can accept that there are also other violations of the SOP.
There are violations of the SOP. Anytime a TSO takes a shortcut, such as not fully explaining the screening process at the beginning, that TSO is deviating from the SOP. Do TSOs often skip advisements? Probably. Does that mean that these same TSOs will literally strip-search a passenger? No, not at all. |
Originally Posted by nachtnebel
(Post 16584651)
The real fix is for TSA to stop the procedures put in place in October of last year.
"Fixing it" means addressing the current situation where you have a private room and under duress have passengers submit to your procedures. The passengers do not know what the procedures and limits are and this makes them susceptible to whatever might be forced on them at that time when they are vulnerable and desperate to make their flight (see the legal definition of "duresss"). Hey, pal, you're addressing the wrong person on this. I work at the lower end of the ladder, not many rungs from the bottom one. Write your Congresscritter. Blasting away at me is a waste of your time...and mine. |
Originally Posted by Bart
(Post 16582843)
There are forum members whose opinions I disagree with but whose word carries a lot of credibility with me in spite of those disagreements. Had one of them made this claim, I would PM them to get this matter addressed.
This may have happened as described. But I'm still skeptical and think the lot of you have been baited hook, line and sinker. For the record, there is nothing in the screening SOP that warrants for anyone to remove clothing with the exception of outer wear such as sweaters, jackets, coats, etc. provided that the individual has other clothing underneath such as a blouse or similar appropriate attire. If any TSO instructs you to remove clothing such as a blouse or pants, DEMAND to see the supervisor and/or your airline representative immediately. Perhaps I've been jaded by the nature of many comments made in this forum which are filled with hyperbole and exaggeration that IF one legitimate claim is made that I am prone to not believe it. And I find it extremely difficult that any checkpoint supervisor would allow such a thing to occur. However, the SOP has pretty specific language, so I'm prone to remain skeptical that this event ever occurred. That's my two cents. |
Originally Posted by Bart
(Post 16583863)
There's a huge difference between acceptable ID and requiring someone to remove a blouse. I don't expect all TSOs across the country to know what a Nexus card looks like. I agree with you that they should, but since the majority of IDs presented are drivers' licenses, I think that TSOs are probably better at spotting fake DLs.
But every TSO is trained in pat-down procedures and procedures used to resolve questionable areas. |
Originally Posted by Bart
(Post 16584035)
TSA will be the first to take action is a TSO is caught stealing. TSA does not tolerate it nor protect those caught in the act from prosecution.
|
Originally Posted by Bart
(Post 16584185)
Significant number? Theft by TSOs is not widespread as you may believe or would have everyone else believe. But it does happen. TSA takes action when it does.
Depending on which source you look at, employee theft is something that many enterprises, corporations and industries have to deal with. Or, to put it another way, there are very few, if any, enterprises, corporations and industries that are immune to employee theft. Employment screening can only go so far. The same privacy issues you and others obsess about in here also apply to prospective employees. Documented cases of prior convictions are easily identified and used to disqualify applicants. But whether or not someone without a previous conviction will actually steal is something that cannot be detected or predicted. Look up the theft rate among bank tellers. You'll find that a very high percentage of them have stolen at least once, and another number has stolen on a repeated basis. Sources differ, but the one I read said 75% of bank tellers have stolen at least once and half of that number steal repeatedly. The issue here is whether or not TSA screening procedures require a woman to remove her blouse in order to resolve an ETD alarm. They do not. This is a blatant violation of TSA policy. The same applies with theft by TSA employees. TSA does not permit it, and TSA will take immediate action against the employee whenever it catches them. Banks account for every penny of cash daily and controls are in place to uncover theft. Does theft happen? Certainly but when discovered, and it is always discovered in time, the employee is no longer working for the financial institution. Banking regulators would frown heavily on having a thief on the payroll. |
Originally Posted by Bart
(Post 16584185)
Look up the theft rate among bank tellers. You'll find that a very high percentage of them have stolen at least once, and another number has stolen on a repeated basis. Sources differ, but the one I read said 75% of bank tellers have stolen at least once and half of that number |
Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
(Post 16584879)
I would certainly like to see a reference to 75% of bank tellers steal.
Banks account for every penny of cash daily and controls are in place to uncover theft. Does theft happen? Certainly but when discovered, and it is always discovered in time, the employee is no longer working for the financial institution. Banking regulators would frown heavily on having a thief on the payroll. |
Originally Posted by Bart
(Post 16584684)
Yeah, and we could all sit down, hold hands, sing Kumbaya and terrorists would stop their attacks because we're all so full of love and kindness.
Hey, pal, you're addressing the wrong person on this. I work at the lower end of the ladder, not many rungs from the bottom one. Write your Congresscritter. Blasting away at me is a waste of your time...and mine. The point is, situations such as was reported by the OP are bound to happen due to the physical process and the mental outlook of TSA workers, through their training, that steps past, over, and through, the normal boundaries that used to restrain improper conduct. Psychologically, once you're touching someone's genitals, it's a small progression to justify proceeding to the next step, removing clothing or considering the removal of clothing to be a reasonable search. There are few if any safeguards against this for the passenger in that private room. |
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 5:32 pm. |
This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.