FlyerTalk Forums - Strip Seach Question

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pmocek (Post 16606559)

SATTSO, could you please tell us whether you meant to refer to something that is impossible, is unlawful, is a violation of secret internal policy, or you are asked not to do, when you wrote, "we cannot"? I think this is a reasonable request, given that we frequently learn of TSA security guards doing things they "cannot do" if "cannot" means "are instructed not to".

For deliberately being obtuse, welcome to the ignore list, Phil. :)

For everyone else, I'll be back later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 16606511)

If WBI images are just fuzzy shapes I fail to understand how something as small as a genital piercing can be cleared only using WBI.

You should ask Rolando Negrin how "fuzzy" those shapes are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATTSO (Post 16606414)

As searches by nature will change over time - new technologies and such, including x-rays, AITs, ETDs, LCS, etc., I do not think there could every be a lasting definitive ruling on "appropriate administrative searches".

Or any kind of search, for that matter. There was a Supreme Court case a few years ago when infrared imaging was used on the outside of a house that was used as part of the probably cause to obtain a search warrant for drug growing. The question was whether that imaging was a search that itself needed a warrant (this actually didn't affect the defendent because there were other things that legitimately led to the warrant). The court ruled that because infrared imaging wasn't a commonly-used technique, people had a "reasonable expectation of privacy", so that it couldn't be used. They did say that if there were a time when it was a routine technology, it would be allowed because an expection of privacy would no longer exist. The dissent agreed with the result, but expressed disappointment that no mechanism was created to give a general principle on how to rule in such cases in the future as to exactly at what point something is routine enough to be allowed to be used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATTSO (Post 16606470)

Here is the problem with what you said: you use the word "required". It is not required.

I meant "required as a condition to be allowed through the checkpoint". Or (more precisely) "might be required" if there were no other way to clear the area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by billycorgan (Post 16606494)

Please answer one simple question then.

Why does the TSA force passengers to have a RPD done in a private room?

I have been told by TSO's on this board that RPD's are far more invasive than SPD's one can easily assume this means removing clothing.

You have stated that you cannot ask us to remove clothing covering genitalia, breasts or buttocks, however underwear does cover those areas, therefore it can be assumed that a TSA could have the person remove those clothes in order to gain entry.

It is very simple, they can't make you remove the clothing but they take you to the private room and say strip down to your underwear or you won't be able to get through security and can't fly.

I have been trying to get an answer for this to.

If there is an object in the genitals,buttocks and /or breasts area. And it cant be cleared.

How can it be cleared if pants and a top is removed.
Cause either the pax has underwere on, most likely.
The area will still be covered. And the objects most likely not seen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATTSO (Post 16606519)

I understand that, but I not allowed to explain it.

I posted a possibility once that was said to be somewhat correct. Think of what the AIT is detecting and then think about the difference between skin/skin boundaries and skin/not-skin boundaries. It is very definitely possible that you can see non-skin objects sharper than you can determine a boundary between two different sections of skin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATTSO (Post 16606560)

So I know this - people on this site are complaining about the private screening room, yet more passengers ask for it than complain. So do you think, if what I told you is true, that its going to go away?

I think that misses the point. Sure, there are passengers who would prefer the SPD be done in private and it's good that TSA accomodates those requests. But if there are passengers that would prefer the RPD be done in public, why can't those requests be accomodated as well?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATTSO (Post 16606598)

For deliberately being obtuse, welcome to the ignore list, Phil. :)

The problem with putting him on your ignore list is that he can keep making what many of us consider to be excellent critiques of your posts, and you won't have a chance to rebut.

@SATTSO

Thanks for attempting to answer my question, perhaps if I am more clear you can better answer it when you return.

I understand that you are required to offer a private screening and that many people do request a private screening even for bag checks and SPD's. In fact, based on my experiences receiving a SPD they even asked me if I wanted a private room for that.

My question was why do TSO's force passengers to have a RPD done in private?

I understand that any type of check can be done in private per the passenger requests, however many people have stated that for RPD's they must be done in private and can't be done in public.

Is that true? Can I have the RPD done in a public place instead of a private room? Can I have my witness or an LEO film the RPD?

I am under the belief, perhaps mistakenly that passengers have and could be required to remove articles of clothing down to their underwear in order to be cleared to fly. A TSO may not be able to require them to do so, but they maybe be forced to if they want to be cleared through security, the choice is up to the passenger obviously, they could decline and not fly.

Please clear this up for me because I will never go through an AIT machine, and I want to know if I can have a RPD patdown in public if necessary.

**edit**
I know the only way to get an RPD is to have an alarm triggered of some type either WTMD, AIT or positive reading of an ETD test.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATTSO (Post 16606560)

I doubt you will believe me, but here goes... then I have to leave, busy day ahead.

When AIT and the new pat downs were coming out (at different times), we heard a lot from above about passenger privacy, and how we needed to protect it.

Specifically, the argument was made that some/many passengers might be uncomfortable receiving this pat down in public (for years we received many comment cards where people complained various procedures were done in public, and it made the passenger feel like a criminal - even for bag checks, yes bag checks). So to make it more comfortable for the passenger, this pat down would be done in private.

Now, I know here on this site there are stories that if you go into the private room, that is where TSA employees really start to abuse you, do all sorts of horrible things to you and such...

But I can honestly tell you this: more passengers go into private screening rooms at THEIR OWN request, than for us offering it. We are REQUIRED to offer it for the SPD, but you would be surprised, over a day/week, how many people ask it for their bag checks and such. It actually makes sense, in a way, people carry "private" things in their bag - underpants and expensive jewelry and such, that they want as few people to see as possible.

So I know this - people on this site are complaining about the private screening room, yet more passengers ask for it than complain. So do you think, if what I told you is true, that its going to go away?

Stats please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caradoc (Post 16606601)

You should ask Rolando Negrin how "fuzzy" those shapes are.

SATTSO claimed the images are just fuzzy outlines or words to that effect.

I'm trying to understand how a small piercing can be cleared only by WBI if the images are not detailed enough to display the item of concern.

Seems like TSA is trying to say that 2+2=7.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATTSO (Post 16606591)

How many LEO pat downs have you received??? :eek::eek::eek:

I was a high school administrator for two decades. I've observed plenty and I've reviewed definitions of what constitutes a LEO "pat-down" search.

Quote:

By definition TSA has NEVER done a pat down, if you want to get into semantics.

Thank you. :) Why not "feel-up" instead? Indeed, I am an amateur observer of semantics, including euphemisms, particularly as practiced deceptively by advertisers, politicians, and government agencies such as the TSA who use "pat-down" as their description:

TSA Statement on New Pat-down Procedures

News & Happenings

October 28, 2010

"TSA is in the process of implementing new pat-down procedures at checkpoints nationwide as one of our many layers of security to keep the traveling public safe. Pat-downs are one important tool to help TSA detect hidden and dangerous items such as explosives. Passengers should continue to expect an unpredictable mix of security layers that include explosives trace detection, advanced imaging technology, canine teams, among others."

http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/102810_patdown.shtm

Pat-Down Inspection

A pat-down inspection complements the hand-wand inspection. In order to ensure security, this inspection may include sensitive areas of the body. Security Officers are rigorously trained to maintain the highest levels of professionalism. You may request that your pat-down inspection be conducted in private.

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtrav...rial_1049.shtm

SATTSO, the TSA sure has some explaining to do to you for describing it as a "pat-down." ;)

The key expression in the relevant court rulings is apparently "no more intrusive or intensive than necessary, in light of current technology."

Here's an ex-LEO (yes, just his opinion), commenting as follows in November 2010:

As of Friday, TSA agents are using what they call a "pat-down" procedure that allows airport security officials to use the front of their hands to search passengers' entire bodies. That's not a "pat-down." It's a full search of a person's body. In police work, that's called a custody search that includes everything short of a cavity search. The TSA needs to be honest about what they're doing. It's not nice to lie to the American people.

You have to wonder if the enemy knows all too well that American security is limited by American tolerance for the invasiveness of its procedures.

I've read definitions here and here, among other sources.

IMHO the TSA has been deliberately disingenuous from the outset in referring to this as a pat-down. I'm shocked, truly shocked. :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichardKenner (Post 16606620)

...The court ruled that because infrared imaging wasn't a commonly-used technique, people had a "reasonable expectation of privacy", so that it couldn't be used. They did say that if there were a time when it was a routine technology, it would be allowed because an expection of privacy would no longer exist...

As soon as it becomes routine technology... Wow! Time to start rereading science fiction and George Orwell. :eek:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 16606749)

Stats please.

Honestly, I don't know if that is something the TSA tracks, if it does I would also be interested, however the statement seems anecdotal.

That being said I believe him about most people wanting searches done in private. I also think that is one thing that the TSA does correctly. I also think that the majority of private searches are done correctly, just like the majority of public searches.

However, when no one but the person performing the search knows exactly what they can and cannot do you do have a potential for abuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by billycorgan (Post 16606786)

And there is the problem for the traveler.

We do not know if a pat down, frisk, rub down, or whatever you want to call it has been done properly since TSA refuses to tell the public what it is we must agree to or can expect during screening.

So I can only believe that the screening is whatever the person doing it says it is and I have no recourse available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 16606827)

Unfortunately I don't see SSI ever being changed to allow passengers to have that information, without some type of legislation being put into place.

The best thing you can do to protect yourself is to have all searches done in public where they can be filmed via airport cameras, and also have a traveling companion film them for you. You can also request a LEO and file a report if you feel like what happened to you was unlawful. This will be much easier to prove with video.

That is why it is imperative for me to know whether or not I can have a RPD done in public and whether or not I can have it filmed. As passengers we have extremely limited options of recourse to procedures done incorrectly (especially since we are ignorant to the proper procedures)

If you are like me and believe that sunshine is the best disinfectant, then I think public SPDs, RPDs and any other searches that I do not know the acronyms for and filming will actually reduce the risk of a TSO performing their duties incorrectly.