PartlySunny

Thanks, OttawaMark. I was really looking for the definition of taking 'position' of the iPhone. The poster seemed to feel that taking 'position' then returning the iPhone was okay, and that the officer never confiscated it.

To me, taking something that belongs to me away, would be considered stealing; officer or not. If they are seizing evidence used in commission of a crime, there is a protocol to follow. They don't just walk up, and take what is yours.

pmocek

I've thought a lot about these questions since I asked them, and I'm concerned that they may have come across as rhetorical or as an attempt to play "gotcha". Neither was my intent. I'm genuinely curious about your experience, Bearcat06, working as a police officer at an airport. You come across here as a reasonable person who is willing to "tell it like it is," and I'd appreciate your input.

Based on my personal experience and on the video of this guy at BNA having his property confiscated by a police officer until a TSA security guard gave the "OK" for him to give it back to its owner, it seems that TSA staff are directing the actions of our police officers. Bearcat06, did TSA staff's frequent "changing their minds about how they are do business" have any bearing on how you went about your job of enforcing the law? If not, what did you mean to imply when you relayed your observation?

chollie

Good question, Phil. I'd like to know the answer too (although maybe it varies from airport to airport).

I thought when TSA called in an LEO that they were, in effect, escalating the situation. I didn't think they called an LEO as subordinate backup to follow TSA directions. Certainly some other posters have related situations where the LEO made the final judgment call, not TSA. Doesn't sound like that's the way it works at Bearcat06's airport.

n4zhg

The only thing I would be sending to the general counsel would be a notice of claim.

pmocek

I thought they were calling a police officer for help just like anyone else would, and that the police officer would assess the situation and take action based on what he or she sees and on his or her understanding of the law. It doesn't seem that anything TSA staff say to law enforcement officers about TSA policies should have much, if any, bearing on a police officer's reaction.

I didn't mean to put it like that, but I'm very curious if airport police, as a general rule, take direction from TSA airport staff. It doesn't seem that most police officers would put up with such a power balance, but who knows. Federal agencies can be quite intimidating, TSA do tend to misrepresent their authority, and TSA "rules" are, as far as we know, mostly unwritten.

Loren Pechtel

Huh? How in the world does the 1st apply here? It's recording, not speech!

Wally Bird

Photographers, specifically those who work for the press, claim the 1st protects them being interpreted as not limited to speech, but applicable to all forms of communication.

Court opinions have been divided on the issue. No surprise there.

See also "Freedom of the Press" and "Flag Burning".

Bearcat06

I'm assuming your screen name is correct. Try taking a side-arm from one of your fellow GIs and see what happens....especailly if you are at FOB or out playing elswhere....


Stealing is not giving back.... Hell, the guy never lost sight of the damn thing.. Perhaps you need to go read up on the law some....


I stated that he should be given some remedial training on the issue....and sent back to work.... Thats enough for me being a prior supervisor......

Had he taken the camera and kept it, whacked the guy upside the head, and drug him to jail.....I am suspecting I would have a different resposnse....

I've taken direction from he FSD from time-to-time.... And I've had to figure out what the hell TSA was doing so they didn't get their rears kicked and/or what they were saying was the correct thing for the day.....

And yes, I've seen TSA scream and yell that there was no pictures allowed back in the day....and we dealt with that accordingly after talking to FSD and our Police Chief.....


He didn't..... try again...



In the right hands alomst anything is a weapon.....



Pffft.....

He took possession of the device....and gave it back....end of story.

Had he confiscated it, the dude would have never gotten in back......

As a Supervisor, I would have told you to go away..... You go the camera back....and I will talk to my Officer about what transpired....

End of story and thats all you would have gotten from 99.9% of the Supervisory Airport LEOs...

As stated.....If I came to a TSA/Screening call (which I dreaded 99.9% of the time because they usually started it and wanted us to end it)....I would always talk to a Screening Manger (which were TSA at my 'Port.....MCI has contractors but Screening Managers and above are TSA) to see if there were new TSA Directives that had came out since the last time I worked shift. 99.9% of the time, TSA would come out with stuff and not tell the LEOs..... hence the reason there were issues at times

Not once did TSA Staff tell me or my Officers what to do....it was still our discretion to make arrests...... toss folks from the Airport....or take whatever action that was needed....... Taking pics (at the time) around the screening area was a big no-no.....but several times TSA would change their minds due to the media outcry (usually around holidays) and they would forget to tell us.... That's why I would have to confer with Managers to see what the new deal was. Never, ever would I go ask a screener like this dude did......

And as a side note....my FAVORITE thing in the world was to scratch out a summons to "TSA" folks speeding/blowing stops signs as they were headed late for work. Further, I've arrested several at their respective gates on various warrant charges and lead them off in cuffs.....with TSA Screening Managers crying the blues about being low on folks.....

I hate TSA with a passion.....but until something changes, I'm not one to get riled up over their antics as long as they don't act like LEOs....don't steal my crap.....don't feel my junk.....and leave me alone when I am being screened.....

Hopefully, I will be flying armed again soon enough and not have to deal with them at all....

pmocek

What bearing did TSA directives have on your enforcement of the law?

I'm no law enforcement expert, but I don't believe "big no-no" is a term of art for your profession. What did you mean by that? Was such photography unlawful?

LuvAirFrance

That's what interest me. What law s violated by photography of TSO's at work?

Jaimito Cartero

I'd guess child porn in some cases...

pmocek

Oh, come on, be nice.

I'm really curious about the relationship between TSA and airport police.

Bearcat06 has said that unlike the officer in the OP's video, he didn't take direction directly from TSA. Bearcat06, Were they used as a source of information about what was lawful and what was not? More generally, what bearing did TSA staff "changing their minds" have on your duty to enforce the law?

You keep describing "checking in" with them and emphasizing their ever-changing policies, but you've yet to describe any connection between those things and the law. Did your duties as an airport police officer include enforcing TSA's rules-of-the-day? If so, are you familiar with any other situations in which a police officer's duties would include enforcement of something other than the law?

Judging by what detail we've been provided, it seems that airport police treat TSA policies as if they were law. If that's the case, then the TSA staff are, in effect, directing the actions of police officers. Bearcat, does that seem like an accurate assessment of the situation?

bdschobel

As a related question, are police officers allowed to see TSA's "SSI" policies? We aren't. Not being able to read the policies makes them pretty difficult to obey. They must be even more difficult to enforce! I can't imagine that a police officer would simply take TSA's word for what the policies are at any given moment.

Bruce

greentips

Guys,

Please. Bearcat06 is being straightforward in his answers. You may not like the answers, and he has already admitted that his officer probably went a little off the mark and said if he were in a supervisory position, the officer would be disciplined.

Did he take the camera? Yes.
Should he have? Probably not.
Is the TSA ambiguous, arbitrary, capricious and whimsical? Yes indeed.
Will the officer be disciplined? Yes, but along the lines of Gee, George, that wasn't one of your brighter moves--don't do it again. You know how those TSA idiots are.

A little common sense will go a long ways. Our system tolerates a little elasticity at the edges to make sure that most things are ok. On both sides of the uniform.

Suppose the cop had kept the camera as contraband or any other thing. Then you can redress this, through appropriate channels.

Don't bait the Bear!

pmocek

I completely agree. I appreciate his willingness to discuss this with us. I hope to hear more from him.

Unanswered questions include:

(His response, which was informative but did not answer any of those three questions, was, "I've taken direction from he FSD from time-to-time.... And I've had to figure out what the hell TSA was doing so they didn't get their rears kicked and/or what they were saying was the correct thing for the day..... And yes, I've seen TSA scream and yell that there was no pictures allowed back in the day....and we dealt with that accordingly after talking to FSD and our Police Chief.....")

(No response.)

(No response.)

(No response.)

(No response.)

(No response.)