Actually if people are touched like that in public they get arrested.

And I agree I dont my private parts touched in public.

I have been trained in the so-called "enhanced" pat-down. There is no cupping if anyones privates. And as another post below yours points out, no running the hand down the cleft if the back side. ALL enhanced pat-down are conducted in private, and for very specific reasons. They are very rare.

Now there is another pat-down that covers most areas of the body, and includes a back of the hand on the backside and back of the hand close to the zipper region - and running the hand up the inside of the thigh. Most of you are not familiar with this pat-down, but it has basically exist since the beginning. You did not receive this pat-down for alarming the WTMD. You received this pat-down for refusing the WTMD. This pat-down is now used for those who refuse the WBI (thus those who refuse the WBI will NOT have their genitals patted down - though back of the hands will come very close, and as I said this is NOT new).

And btw, TSOs are NOT even trained on the enhanced pat-down. So if a TSO patted you down, you did not receive the enhanced pat-down. ;)

Hope this helps some.

Then explain to me (and the rest of the group) why there are reports of TSO's practically groping pax for refusing the Nude-o-Scan? Using the front of the hand over the genitals, etc.

If these TSO's are violating policy, then why isn't training being done to insure that TSA Policies are being followed? Or, why aren't TSO's being fired for failing to follow procedure?

Why have the Nude-o-Scan's at all?

WHY WHY WHY?

Yes. And not only that. If the nude scanners are being so much infavor and the pat -downs.

Why not just let people get naked if they choose so instead of all that?

Then you dont have to take the chance of doing something way out of line. And then it goes faster and you get to see that is (hopefully) nothing there.

The "zipper region", is that what they're calling it now? :rolleyes:

You didn't read anything i said, did you??? Why bother responding to me if you don't read?

I'll repeat, opting out of the WBI will NOT result in a pat-down of your private area using the front of the screeners hand. How can I make that more clear?

It's what I call it.

But as to why are there reports as to what you claim? Because for those who have never received the pat-down being employed for opt outs, it's about perception. But it's the same pay-down employed for years.

So I'll repeat: the enhanced pat-down will be done in private (usually after something else happens -you figure it out). TSOs are NOT even trained in the enhanced pat-downs.

But to your original point, as you well know, witness accouts are never exaggerated or mistaken, right? Uh, right..

So you are saying that the reports to the contrary are lies?

In every job they are always a lot of bad apples.
Just becaus you might not be one. That doesnt mean others are.
Yes people INNOCENT people are being abused every day by TSA.
Rite No way. Wrong YES.

I wear Levi 501s with buttons. Guess I don't need to worry about a pat-down.

I did read, thankyouverymuch. Condscending much?

What I'm saying is your recitation of the procedure DOES NOT square with reports coming from the field.

So, it sounds to me like these TSOs are breaking the rules.

Explain away.

Condscending? Yes, to certain attitudes.

How can I explain the inexperience or fear or whatever of people I do not know? I can't - and neither can you.

As I said, you didn read what I wrote: most people who opt out of the WBI receive a pat-down that has been used for YEARS for those who refused the WTMD. Now consider this, most people who used to refuse the WTMD now use the WBI when it is available. It's quicker than the pat-down.

So...those who now receive this pat-down never received it before. Oh, TSA has/had a pat-down for everything. If you alarmed the WTMD there was a pat-down; if you wore bulky clothing, there was a pat-down; if you had a metal implant, there was a pat-down; etc...

Very few people ever received the pat-down for those who refused the WTMD, and the pat-down does come right next to your genital region. If people are unsteady or clumsy or just rushing, they actually may touch the genitalia (I will not deny that). So it's very easy for me to understand why someone who never received this type of pat-down to think their genital area I'd being searched, when in fact the area around it is being searched.

But these are the facts: TSOs are not trained in and can not perform the "enhanced" pat-down, which DOES use the front of the hand directly over the genital area. The pat-down WILL be performed in private (you can have a witness); the enhanced pat-down is NOT done for opt outs of the WBI; the enhanced pat-down is very rare.

First you say that you have been trained to conduct the "Enhanced" pat down then in your last sentence you state that TSO's are not even trained on the enhanced pat down. So which is it?

There have been a number of reports of pat downs by TSA employees using the front of the hand and cupping genitals or breast.

If what you are saying is correct then either all of those reports are inaccurate or more likely some TSA employees are violating policy in a big way.

At no time would I elect to be taken to a private area to interact with TSA. TSA employees cannot be trusted and leaving the public area would certainly not be to the advantage of the traveler.

As to your first statement where you think you have pointed out a contradiction: I have been trained in the "enhanced" pat-down; TSOs are not trained it this pat-down nor do they perform it.

You still haven't answered my question.

I am willing to accept that SOP is that the back of the hand is used for a Nude-O-Scan opt out.

But what's being reported by pax in the field is that TSOs are using the front of their hands on the genitals/breasts. Are you saying that these people are mistaken? That there's no way that could have happened?

I won't go that far. I'll even go as far as to say that you believe what you're reading about these gropes.

What I'll ask again is this: Why are the reports from the field (pax reports) not squaring with what you state is SOP? And what is being done to these TSO's who break SOP? (I don't really expect you to know the answer to this, but it's worth a shot)

Why are we being told 2 different things - one by you, one by people who have experienced these gropes at the hands of the TSA?

Yes I'm holding your feet to the fire. I want an answer. Instead, you're dancing.

Methinks you and gsoltso need to get on the same page because the two of you are telling us two different stories. Or one or both of you are being misleading. Why am I not surprised.

However, at least he identifies himself as a lead screener. You, on the other hand, have misled us.

From BB: