Oh yes I do know that.
So that is also why I think it is very odd that many thinks it is ok to be touched!

I think people should have a choice if it comes down to that.
USA is known for having dubbel morals .

Again I have reached a point where I can't give you more detailed responses as far as policy. I do apologize that I do not have better info to impart to you, but I am employed by TSA and abide by their rules.

The consent issue is again above my pay grade - I understand what you are saying, I understand the frustration on both your and Tanja's part, but I do not have better information to give you other than the contact info for TSA/DHS.

As far as what you are confused about, I do not have a "script" or official advisement I can put out to you, but as I indicated in my previous response, if it were me..., I would :

3) If I were traveling and were sent to another section of the checkpoint for additional screening, my items would go with me before I moved.

I hope these answers will help you to some extent. I understand your concerns based on the laptop incident, and would most likely be of a similar opinion, had it happened to me. I will do some research on the signs and such from the checkpoint/websites and see if I can dig up the official line on your items.

I really would like to read your point of view or reaction to if you would travel to Sweden and they would force you to strip. Not that they do that. It is an opiton.

But how would you feel if you had no option? That you would do something that makes you really feel weird and unsafe.

Thanks, gsoltso.That does help. I do appreciate the fact that you're bound by rules. You're not paid to agree with them necessarily, but you are paid to follow them and I respect that. I do really appreciate all the help you try to give us here and I appreciate the respect you display in your posts. ^

I think it's something you need to be concerned about and perhaps something you ought to discuss with your attorney. Because if a court rules there's no "consent" and therefore that you've touched somebody's genital region without consent, the only thing between you and a sexual offense conviction is the lack of "intent" and we've seen how much it cost a Virginia person in the same situation.

"I was just following orders..."

I have actually been to Stockholm back in the late 80's ( a lifetime ago!), you have a lovely country and the hills and mountains outside of Stockholm were fun to hike through, it seemed like there was a lake every 20 minutes or so and each one was as beautiful as the last!

If I were to travel to Sweden, and (this is where I am a bit different than some folks) I had researched the basics, and it was a normal part of the host countries protocols, I would follow their rules. If I had a big enough problem with the rules they had (such as if a country were to require me to give them my credit card upon entry, or submit to a blood test) that I would find completely outside the norms of my own customs and mores that bothered me enough, I just wouldn't go - but that is just me, and I can't expect everone to have the same opinion. However, if the protocols were normal for the host country and I flew there, I would abide by them - even if it made me feel a bit uncomfortable.

Your thanks is certainly appreciated as well. Also thank you for understanding aboout the "rules".^

I hear what you are saying, but I think the situation is not as bad as some folks here are describing. The pat down is not as invasive as some here describe it (creative writings aside), and it is simply the procedure (and a common one in security and law enfocement circles) used to check passengers for WEI, when they opt out. We are not LEO, but we have the responsibility to insure that passengers do not have WEI on their person when they pass through the checkpoint, and until we have some tech that can screen everyone without requiring them to stand, hold their arms a certain way, etc - the patdown, hand wnding and AIT are going to be the order of the day. IF changes are warranted, they will be handed down from HQ (probably far in advance of lawsuits of the nature you are describing).

Thank you for your answer.
You at least found things out before your trip, a lot of people dont. But now a days the rules changes so fast. So when you start your trip it is certain rules by the time you come back home it is all changed .

I do know that ( Europe ) Scandinavia it a bit different than the rest of the world.
We have ( after what i have heard and been told and experinced) more the attitude that we show instead of being touched.
And yes most of us have a hard time understanding why touching would be better than showing.

I have friends in the police force, security and immigration. they all say they prefer then a person volentarily takes of their clothes so they dont have to pat down.

In some cases they have had people crying.And they, the people who they are scanning, dont want either since in their culture it is a sin.

I just think it is wrong with no option. But one of the most imporatnt parts is that the people doing all this scanning and pat downs need to be more people's minded. Not a so high power trips.

And yes Sweden is very beautiful . I come from the south.

The pat down that TSA is using is a problem if TSA is cupping genitals.

I have talked with several BOP employees and they tell me they cannot cup genitals of an inmates unless some very specific reasons exist.

If TSA is doing pat downs that require the cupping of genitals as a routine matter then I strongly believe that TSA has step over the line of decorum, good judgement, and need.

Would you permit your daughter, wife or mother to be screened knowing the "Enhanced Pat Down" would be used?

I agree that TSOs should be courteous, and should not be on power trip - there is nothing to power trip on, I mean really! We do security at the airport and other transportation venues, this is not like working at a nuclear weapons storage facility (which I have done, and the protocols are much different there let me tell you!). We are here to help protect folks flying, and to prevent prohibited items from getting on planes - not play God (or Odin if you prefer) with the folks coming through. As for the option, I am not sure what would happen if that situation were presented to the HQ groups,, many places in America still have public nudity laws in place. Our society has much more puritanical roots, and a much shorter history than yours does, so many of our citizens would rather be patted down through the clothes, than seen without them. Just a cultural difference between us, not that either one is right or wrong, just different. Thank you for the discussion, it is nice and a refreshing change of pace!:D

Based on the information I have from TSA on the enhaned pat down, yes I would allow any member of my family to be screened via the process (to include me). Cool - BOP - our region has pretty much gone to the "DOC" moniker, nice to see BOP is still out there somewhere.

Are you saying that you have not been trained as of yet on how to conduct an "Enhanced Pat Down"?

Not sure what DOC stands for but BOP is short for the Federal Bureau of Prisons.

It seems federal prisoners have more rights than people who wish to travel by commercial air.

A truly sad statement that negatively reflects directly on TSA and its employees.

I hope I am misunderstanding you here.

I do believe that some folks have experienced a frisk that involved cupping genitals, stroking a hand down the buttocks cleft, touching breasts, and palming buttocks. This isn't just folks of both genders reporting, bystanders have also reported seeing it. To pretend otherwise is to say, in effect, that there's no TSO who would go over the line, but there are passengers who would go over the line and make up a story. Sorry, that doesn't fly. Remember Rolando Negrin?

There's also enough reports that I consider credible that folks with bulky clothing get subjected to extra scrutiny, even going through the WTMD. And that the AIT can't reliably penetrate bulky layers (like a surgical dressing), so an additional patdown is required.

At least one TSO on this forum mentioned visual confirmation, and I believe when TSA was originally asked about folks with colostomy bags, etc, there was mention of 'questioning' to resolve the issues. (??) Someone with a fake surgical device is going to tell the truth when questioned?

There's a few too many specific reports out there for me to believe that it isn't as invasive or rough as reported.

Should it be that way? No. Do you do it that way? You say you don't. Can you be sure that other TSOs don't do it that way? No. I think you (or any TSO) really put people's backs up when you routinely give TSOs the benefit of the doubt and rarely give the passenger the benefit of a doubt.

I would think it's in your best interests to self-police. If I were frisking a pax and I looked over to see other TSOs standing watching, I would immediately stop what I was doing and ask them why they are watching. I would refuse to continue the screening as long as they were watching. I would make it clear to the pax that frisking is not a spectator sport. The truth is, if you're in a situation like that and you don't confront or report your fellow TSOs, you are tacitly supporting their behavior. TSOs post on this forum and the blog about how stressful it gets when jerk passengers come through the checkpoint, how stressful, implying that maybe they subsequently take out their hostility on the next pax in line. Unprofessional. Further, it works both ways. If I have a bad encounter with a TSO (or someone close to me does or I observe a total stranger being mistreated by a TSO), I approach the next encounter with foreboding. At that point, if you say 'good morning', I'm not likely to be in a mood to respond in kind.

In short, you ask us to give you the benefit of a doubt. Please do the same in return. Not all pax go to a checkpoint with a chip on their shoulder (most don't). Not all TSOs have integrity and respect the pax. Most do, but if even one TSO has a chip on his/her shoulder, he affects a LOT of pax in just one day.

Yes, our society has puritanical roots. Those puritanical roots mean that most folks aren't comfortable with nudity or being frisked. Most folks wouldn't be comfortable viewing the nudity or doing the frisking either.

If TSA can learn to frisk open-palmed and look at virtually nude images, then surely if a pax is willing, TSA shouldn't balk at someone who chooses actual nudity over being touched.

EXCUSE ME?! When someone is patting down my breasts (in front of a bunch of other TSO's and passengers), I call that invasive!!! :mad: I would never allow my husband to touch me like that in public so why should I allow a screener to do so? And, for the sake of all those reading along, a screening officer has done this to me two times already.

BTW, law enforcement is not allowed to do a patdown in my country (touching genitals/breasts) unless they have a reason that will stand up in court (not sure of the laws in the U.S.). But, screeners get to do whatever they want in the name of "keeping the country secure". What a load of $#@%.

You know, until you made that statement above, I was fairly agreeable with the info you have posted in this thread. But, now, all I see another TSO with 'tude.

If I understand correctly, the wand won't detect explosives. The frisk is to detect anomalies, ie the underpants bomber's 'package'.

Why can't an opt-out passenger be wanded with the regular wand, then wanded again with a 'wand' with an explosive-testing swab on it? I'd rather be touched with a wand than a hand (even though I understand some TSOs get creative in using the wand, particularly with women wearing skirts).

Wands don't clutch and grab.

Thank you for saying that.
Not that I want to do it. But I rather take off my clothes in private in front on women.
In front of men that is a different story . That would be at a very high price.

I just dont want to be touched by strangers. I think it is rude and immature.

Last time I travelled I was patted down. The young lady was very nice and curtious. The problem I did have with her was that I had to lower my arms. She without one word just smacked my arms.

She could have said, are you tired in your arms just lets make a short brake.

How hard what that have been? I was so supprised that I didnt say one thing.
Now I am prepared they want super man/women then they pat down.