Last edit by: elitetraveler
JetSmarter is a membership program that allows members to fly on empty legs of private jets (JetDeals) and seats on scheduled private jet shuttles (JetShuttle).
JetSmarter - discussion and experiences
#1546
Join Date: May 2017
Location: London
Programs: BA Gold Club, Chase, JetSmarter, NCL
Posts: 25
As usual, you don't know what you're talking about from a legal standpoint. You seem to think "T&C" control in every instance, but for hundreds of years of common law, as well as certain statutory law such as that cited above, penalties like JetSmarter charges have been held to be invalid. Imagine if American Airlines added to their T&C that if you no-show, you have to pay a $5,000 penalty. So you buy a deeply-discounted $59 ticket from SF to LA, and don't show up. You owe $5 grand, right? Wrong, donkey.
Also, commercial airlines do have penalties and never offer refunds for cancelling unless you purchase the refundable ticket (extra $$$). If you purchase flexible seating and decide to change the route, you'll end up paying a fee and the cost difference between flights. They don't just happily reimburse you for missing a flight.
#1547
Join Date: May 2017
Location: London
Programs: BA Gold Club, Chase, JetSmarter, NCL
Posts: 25
Simple (or anyone) can access for free through jet deals, rather than paying? That doesn't make any sense. So I could initiate a shared charter, have a couple of my Simple membership friends join me and book up several more seats for free and get reimbursed? For some reason, I'm skeptical.
#1548
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 469
Also, commercial airlines do have penalties and never offer refunds for cancelling unless you purchase the refundable ticket (extra $$$). If you purchase flexible seating and decide to change the route, you'll end up paying a fee and the cost difference between flights. They don't just happily reimburse you for missing a flight.
Do you do this for a living? Because I do; so maybe a little less authority, a little more listening, if you don't.
#1549
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 469
You didn't say anything about "paid." Also, how is it a jetdeal if you have to pay to access? Jetdeals are free, aren't they? I'll hang up and listen.
#1550
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Oakland CA
Programs: DL Gold, AS MVPG, Globalist
Posts: 1,008
Yeah, I'm a reasonably big fan of the company, and think it provides amazing value and really does have the potential to reshape private aviation (esp. with this new shared charter thing )... but charging a member a cancellation fee for a shuttle because a deal cancelled is just wrong.
First off, as Sykes pointed out, it's technically illegal to cancel your outbound flight if you've confirmed the invoice. I've not wanted to push this, because truth is the law is probably behind here. We wouldn't have an empty leg program at all if operators had to fly all the empties they posted, regardless of schedule changes. I think the accommodation JS has now ( replacement flight if close in, no accommodation farther out ) is a reasonable compromise. But technically, they are on the hook once troyb confirmed the invoice.
Second, as WhyPrivate pointed out, THEY (or their affiliated operator) cancelled the outbound. I get charging a hefty cancellation fee on a free flight if somebody just decides not to show, because you need to heavily disincentivize that behavior. Otherwise people would just book every flight they can, and then miss most of them. But in this case it was a service fault of their own... and on top of that the shuttle couldn't have been booked for more than a few hours, so troyb wasn't holding a seat for long.
Finally, it's the right thing to do from a member service perspective. Instead of a 'hey this bad thing happened to me but JS is great' story, you've got a disgruntled member. Is the $1000 in revenue today worth losing potentially tens of thousands over the long haul? Only they can determine that, but I know I wouldn't have come to the same conclusion if I'd been running the show.
@troyb I'd push them a bit on this; I hope they make it right for you.
First off, as Sykes pointed out, it's technically illegal to cancel your outbound flight if you've confirmed the invoice. I've not wanted to push this, because truth is the law is probably behind here. We wouldn't have an empty leg program at all if operators had to fly all the empties they posted, regardless of schedule changes. I think the accommodation JS has now ( replacement flight if close in, no accommodation farther out ) is a reasonable compromise. But technically, they are on the hook once troyb confirmed the invoice.
Second, as WhyPrivate pointed out, THEY (or their affiliated operator) cancelled the outbound. I get charging a hefty cancellation fee on a free flight if somebody just decides not to show, because you need to heavily disincentivize that behavior. Otherwise people would just book every flight they can, and then miss most of them. But in this case it was a service fault of their own... and on top of that the shuttle couldn't have been booked for more than a few hours, so troyb wasn't holding a seat for long.
Finally, it's the right thing to do from a member service perspective. Instead of a 'hey this bad thing happened to me but JS is great' story, you've got a disgruntled member. Is the $1000 in revenue today worth losing potentially tens of thousands over the long haul? Only they can determine that, but I know I wouldn't have come to the same conclusion if I'd been running the show.
@troyb I'd push them a bit on this; I hope they make it right for you.
#1551
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Columbus OH
Programs: DL Diamond, CO Gold, US Silver, Natl Exec, Hertz #1, Avis Preferred, Elite w/ All US Hotel Programs
Posts: 401
but for reference, in the app there is a per-seat JetDeals price which is mitigated by a "Member Free Seats Promotion" in the flight quote calculation. Technically I suppose the JetDeal seats aren't free, they're discounted to a zero balance.
#1552
Join Date: May 2017
Location: London
Programs: BA Gold Club, Chase, JetSmarter, NCL
Posts: 25
Quoted from my post: "(my friend recently got the 3 month trial so she is able to pay for a seat on a shared charter but not create one)"
Where else would a shared charter show up in the app? If someone creates a charter that isn't in a shuttle city how would anyone find it to fill the seats? It is not necessarily a Jetdeal because its not a repositioning flight (empty leg), but its still a discounted seat for what would normally be a pricy charter.
#1553
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 3
Finally, it's the right thing to do from a member service perspective. Instead of a 'hey this bad thing happened to me but JS is great' story, you've got a disgruntled member. Is the $1000 in revenue today worth losing potentially tens of thousands over the long haul? Only they can determine that, but I know I wouldn't have come to the same conclusion if I'd been running the show.
@troyb I'd push them a bit on this; I hope they make it right for you.
@troyb I'd push them a bit on this; I hope they make it right for you.
#1554
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 469
I'm not an attorney, and I don't know the in's and out's of Public Charter law -
but for reference, in the app there is a per-seat JetDeals price which is mitigated by a "Member Free Seats Promotion" in the flight quote calculation. Technically I suppose the JetDeal seats aren't free, they're discounted to a zero balance.
but for reference, in the app there is a per-seat JetDeals price which is mitigated by a "Member Free Seats Promotion" in the flight quote calculation. Technically I suppose the JetDeal seats aren't free, they're discounted to a zero balance.
#1555
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 469
Quoted from my post: "(my friend recently got the 3 month trial so she is able to pay for a seat on a shared charter but not create one)"
Where else would a shared charter show up in the app? If someone creates a charter that isn't in a shuttle city how would anyone find it to fill the seats? It is not necessarily a Jetdeal because its not a repositioning flight (empty leg), but its still a discounted seat for what would normally be a pricy charter.
Where else would a shared charter show up in the app? If someone creates a charter that isn't in a shuttle city how would anyone find it to fill the seats? It is not necessarily a Jetdeal because its not a repositioning flight (empty leg), but its still a discounted seat for what would normally be a pricy charter.
This all goes back to what I was saying about the laughably unclear video rollout by Sergey Jobs.
#1556
Suspended
Join Date: Apr 2017
Programs: AMEX Centurion, Inspirato, jetmembership.com, Mandarin Oriental, Hertz Gold Plus
Posts: 91
#1557
Join Date: May 2017
Location: London
Programs: BA Gold Club, Chase, JetSmarter, NCL
Posts: 25
I look forward to finding out. Are there any available now? How many seats do Smart and Sophisticated members get to book on them, and are they paid, or free, and are the initiators reimbursed if they're free?
This all goes back to what I was saying about the laughably unclear video rollout by Sergey Jobs.
This all goes back to what I was saying about the laughably unclear video rollout by Sergey Jobs.
#1558
Join Date: Jan 2013
Programs: DL, UA
Posts: 594
It's possible that what JetSmarter is doing is unethical, and illegal. The JetDeals are Public Charters operated under 14 CFR Part 380. Under Part 380, it is illegal to cancel a public charter within 10 days of departure unless it is physically impossible to operate the flight:
for someone who's called names, probably because of your career choice, I guess I understand the unprovoked attempt in retaliation, but I've not called you a name, don't know you and have little desire to get to know you. Might I humbly suggest a little more civility on a public forum?
As usual, you don't know what you're talking about from a legal standpoint. You seem to think "T&C" control in every instance, but for hundreds of years of common law, as well as certain statutory law such as that cited above, penalties like JetSmarter charges have been held to be invalid.
quite possible, I don't know the full legal ramifications as intimately as you. And, I've not professed to be a proficient practitioner of the law, as you seem to elude you are. My opinion: just sue them, then. Sounds like you've got them hook-line-and-sinker. And sounds like you might know someone who can do all the filing for you, too.
I note https://jetsmarter.com/legal/charter-terms which per section {1} implies Jetsmarter is acting as an agent, and not the operator nor a 14 C.F.R. Part 135 (“FAR Part 135”) provider. They're a manager of the Program and act as Member’s agent. I wonder what the FAA would say to this as it applies to the code of federal regulations that apply only to charter operators? I suspect when, for example, Tom Cruise's agent books him a flight, they're not actually on the hook for refunding Tom a pre-agreed cancelation fee he had consented to with his agent, if they, for example told him that the flight had been canceled. Equally a travel agent, might have a service fee that is outside the bounds of the CFR restrictions on what actual flight operators can charge.
It's my understanding these fees are billed by Jetsmarter - NOT the flight operator who cancels the flight. Your assertion Jetsmarter are required to comply with the 14 CFR 380 provisions assumes that they are even legally able to comply with them. I venture to suggest they are not.
Back to the legal terms from their agency relationship regarding charters: They go on to say except when it's expressly stated that the 14 CFR 380 rules and regulations (“Public Charter Program”) [are in place], all travel arrangements are made on-demand according to customer-directed itineraries and flight requirements under the Terms and Conditions, restrictions, and limitations reflected herein.
I'd say then that the fees they're claiming are not to do with the charter, per se, but rather then service that Jetsmarter is providing i.e. the booking aspect and agent relationship they're acting under.
Again, being a layman to the law, if you disagree - go sue em. Apparently there's lots you have on them, and therefore you should be able to form a class easily, and perhaps go after their war chest, no?
My travel agent who books me a flight - whether on Jetsmarter, or Netjets, or American - is quite within their rights as my agent to charge me whatever the heck they want in a cancelation, booking, or "agency" fee that I've agreed and submitted to, and at no time does said fee become related to the 14 CFR 380 regulations. But, just going out on a limb here - I think your introduction of American Airlines as a 'comparison' and your request we "imagine" is asking more for us to fantasize. And, with respect, we'd rather not.
Take some of your millions and buy some spectacles, @millions, cause your attention to detail is sorely lacking today.
Last edited by T-15.01; Jul 12, 2017 at 4:53 pm Reason: typo
#1559
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: SF Bay Area
Programs: UA 1K, Hyatt Globalist, Virtuoso Travel Agent, Commercial Pilot
Posts: 2,117
I note https://jetsmarter.com/legal/charter-terms which per section {1} implies Jetsmarter is acting as an agent, and not the operator nor a 14 C.F.R. Part 135 (“FAR Part 135”) provider. ...
https://jetsmarter.com/legal/public-charter-agreements
Drawing from the XO Jet one (https://jetsmarter.com/legal/public-...nts/PC-16-151/), which is used for both some JetShuttles and JetDeals, the following sections are relevant and acknowledge the Part 380 regulations (almost verbatim):
VI. CANCELLATIONS, CHANGES OF DATES AND REFUNDS
<snipped for brevity>
The Cancellation Fee will not apply if Member’s seat on a cancelled flight is occupied by a substitute participant found by JetSmarter or in the event a Member provides a qualified substitute participant who is a JetSmarter member and who is eligible to reserve the flight under the terms and conditions of that Member’s membership agreement and all other applicable laws, and terms and conditions.
<snipped for brevity>
The Cancellation Fee will not apply if Member’s seat on a cancelled flight is occupied by a substitute participant found by JetSmarter or in the event a Member provides a qualified substitute participant who is a JetSmarter member and who is eligible to reserve the flight under the terms and conditions of that Member’s membership agreement and all other applicable laws, and terms and conditions.
XII. MAJOR CHANGES
<snipped for brevity>
JetSmarter has no right to cancel a Charter Flight less than ten (10) days before the scheduled departure date, except for circumstances that make it physically impossible to perform the Charter Flight or causes beyond its control.
<snipped for brevity>
JetSmarter has no right to cancel a Charter Flight less than ten (10) days before the scheduled departure date, except for circumstances that make it physically impossible to perform the Charter Flight or causes beyond its control.
Last edited by Sykes; Jul 12, 2017 at 5:14 pm
#1560
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 469
except, I don't believe they're obliged to comply with CFR Part 380 unless they're legally able to. More on that responding to @millions (Esq.?) beneath.
for someone who's called names, probably because of your career choice, I guess I understand the unprovoked attempt in retaliation, but I've not called you a name, don't know you and have little desire to get to know you. Might I humbly suggest a little more civility on a public forum?
to both you @millions and @Sykes -
quite possible, I don't know the full legal ramifications as intimately as you. And, I've not professed to be a proficient practitioner of the law, as you seem to elude you are. My opinion: just sue them, then. Sounds like you've got them hook-line-and-sinker. And sounds like you might know someone who can do all the filing for you, too.
I note https://jetsmarter.com/legal/charter-terms which per section {1} implies Jetsmarter is acting as an agent, and not the operator nor a 14 C.F.R. Part 135 (“FAR Part 135”) provider. They're a manager of the Program and act as Member’s agent. I wonder what the FAA would say to this as it applies to the code of federal regulations that apply only to charter operators? I suspect when, for example, Tom Cruise's agent books him a flight, they're not actually on the hook for refunding Tom a pre-agreed cancelation fee he had consented to with his agent, if they, for example told him that the flight had been canceled. Equally a travel agent, might have a service fee that is outside the bounds of the CFR restrictions on what actual flight operators can charge.
It's my understanding these fees are billed by Jetsmarter - NOT the flight operator who cancels the flight. Your assertion Jetsmarter are required to comply with the 14 CFR 380 provisions assumes that they are even legally able to comply with them. I venture to suggest they are not.
Back to the legal terms from their agency relationship regarding charters: They go on to say except when it's expressly stated that the 14 CFR 380 rules and regulations (“Public Charter Program”) [are in place], all travel arrangements are made on-demand according to customer-directed itineraries and flight requirements under the Terms and Conditions, restrictions, and limitations reflected herein.
I'd say then that the fees they're claiming are not to do with the charter, per se, but rather then service that Jetsmarter is providing i.e. the booking aspect and agent relationship they're acting under.
Again, being a layman to the law, if you disagree - go sue em. Apparently there's lots you have on them, and therefore you should be able to form a class easily, and perhaps go after their war chest, no?
As @travelnat95 correctly points out, it's apples and oranges here. You're slamming me for my lack of legal knowledge on 14 CFR 380 which applies to Public Charters, implying Jetsmarter are bound by them (which I'm suggesting, perhaps, they are not), and then you introduce a commercial carrier and use some arbitrary example of them imposing a $5,000 penalty. Again, I'm not the expert, and don't pretend to be. But is it perhaps a possibility that American Airlines are not generally selling seats as a Public Charter operator? And are therefore not bound by 14 CFR 380?
My travel agent who books me a flight - whether on Jetsmarter, or Netjets, or American - is quite within their rights as my agent to charge me whatever the heck they want in a cancelation, booking, or "agency" fee that I've agreed and submitted to, and at no time does said fee become related to the 14 CFR 380 regulations. But, just going out on a limb here - I think your introduction of American Airlines as a 'comparison' and your request we "imagine" is asking more for us to fantasize. And, with respect, we'd rather not.
as @travelnat95 later confirms, they did mention "paid", you just missed it.
Take some of your millions and buy some spectacles, @millions, cause your attention to detail is sorely lacking today.
for someone who's called names, probably because of your career choice, I guess I understand the unprovoked attempt in retaliation, but I've not called you a name, don't know you and have little desire to get to know you. Might I humbly suggest a little more civility on a public forum?
to both you @millions and @Sykes -
quite possible, I don't know the full legal ramifications as intimately as you. And, I've not professed to be a proficient practitioner of the law, as you seem to elude you are. My opinion: just sue them, then. Sounds like you've got them hook-line-and-sinker. And sounds like you might know someone who can do all the filing for you, too.
I note https://jetsmarter.com/legal/charter-terms which per section {1} implies Jetsmarter is acting as an agent, and not the operator nor a 14 C.F.R. Part 135 (“FAR Part 135”) provider. They're a manager of the Program and act as Member’s agent. I wonder what the FAA would say to this as it applies to the code of federal regulations that apply only to charter operators? I suspect when, for example, Tom Cruise's agent books him a flight, they're not actually on the hook for refunding Tom a pre-agreed cancelation fee he had consented to with his agent, if they, for example told him that the flight had been canceled. Equally a travel agent, might have a service fee that is outside the bounds of the CFR restrictions on what actual flight operators can charge.
It's my understanding these fees are billed by Jetsmarter - NOT the flight operator who cancels the flight. Your assertion Jetsmarter are required to comply with the 14 CFR 380 provisions assumes that they are even legally able to comply with them. I venture to suggest they are not.
Back to the legal terms from their agency relationship regarding charters: They go on to say except when it's expressly stated that the 14 CFR 380 rules and regulations (“Public Charter Program”) [are in place], all travel arrangements are made on-demand according to customer-directed itineraries and flight requirements under the Terms and Conditions, restrictions, and limitations reflected herein.
I'd say then that the fees they're claiming are not to do with the charter, per se, but rather then service that Jetsmarter is providing i.e. the booking aspect and agent relationship they're acting under.
Again, being a layman to the law, if you disagree - go sue em. Apparently there's lots you have on them, and therefore you should be able to form a class easily, and perhaps go after their war chest, no?
As @travelnat95 correctly points out, it's apples and oranges here. You're slamming me for my lack of legal knowledge on 14 CFR 380 which applies to Public Charters, implying Jetsmarter are bound by them (which I'm suggesting, perhaps, they are not), and then you introduce a commercial carrier and use some arbitrary example of them imposing a $5,000 penalty. Again, I'm not the expert, and don't pretend to be. But is it perhaps a possibility that American Airlines are not generally selling seats as a Public Charter operator? And are therefore not bound by 14 CFR 380?
My travel agent who books me a flight - whether on Jetsmarter, or Netjets, or American - is quite within their rights as my agent to charge me whatever the heck they want in a cancelation, booking, or "agency" fee that I've agreed and submitted to, and at no time does said fee become related to the 14 CFR 380 regulations. But, just going out on a limb here - I think your introduction of American Airlines as a 'comparison' and your request we "imagine" is asking more for us to fantasize. And, with respect, we'd rather not.
as @travelnat95 later confirms, they did mention "paid", you just missed it.
Take some of your millions and buy some spectacles, @millions, cause your attention to detail is sorely lacking today.
And at risk of beating a dead horse, no, your travel agent isn't allowed to charge you whatever he wants for a cancellation, even if you "agreed" to it. You just don't know what you're talking about. Do some googling about the limits of liquidated damages, or sit in on a 1L law school contracts course, or call your lawyer. But just stop acting like you know what you're talking about. Because you don't.
As to whether I should file a request for arbitration...to be honest, it's very unlikely that I won't, if at the time of my membership termination JS is still solvent. But there may also be a hook for a bigger suit in federal court based on the Lanham Act or UCL. I'll be sure to keep you posted.
Also, the word you're looking for is "allude," not "elude." It's the second time you've made the mistake in a few days, and I wouldn't want this vocabulary word to elude you for much longer.
Last edited by millions; Jul 12, 2017 at 5:50 pm