Jun 19, 2013, 9:45 pm
Last edit by: fti
People, please edit/use the wiki so same questions are not always asked.
The current CTA decision on the Yangon deal is only for tickets canceled by SWISS Airlines for the seven merged complaints/companions and tickets canceled by Jet Airways for one complainant and companions
- It's not about other carriers because each carrier submits different tariffs.
- If you are not one of the complainants or their companions above who were mentioned in the respective cases, you need to submit a case yourself for hearing.
- There's currently one person who is on Iberia for CTA decision, one can either wait for results or submit a complaint to CTA.
Result of the current case for LX in brief is:
- CTA found 5(F) in the tariff used to be unclear for canceling tickets on erroneously quoted fares.
- 5(F) is unjust and unreasonable and must be revised or taken down by July 9, 2013 (or SWISS can appeal by then)
- SWISS did not use its tariff correctly to cancel the tickets.
- SWISS must compensate one complainant's First Class ticket and any related expenses by July 18, 2013 provided with evidence.
- SWISS must transport other complainants (and their companions) in the original price charged with same booking class and routing by June 18, 2014.
Result of the current case for 9W in brief is:
- Tariff on file had no clauses for "erroneous fares" and was updated subsequently, which means it is not relevant to this event
- Therefore, 9W is to reinstate the tickets with a 1-year validity for transport between the same points and the same booking class.
CTA official news can be read here for general overview of the case.
Actual CTA case review can be found here for reference should you wish to file a complaint.
If you have a similar case that's with SWISS, you need to file with CTA to get a result through informal process first before it gets to formal process. The entire procedure can take up to 3 months for each and the result may not be same cause it's case-by-base and the reviewer of the case can be different.
To file an informal complaint with CTA, see here. Click through all of the pages to get to the online form for the informal complaint. Or click here.
To file a formal complaint after informal complaint has been closed, see here. Continue on to the next page to see the address or email address for the formal complaint.
The July 17th and 18th responses from LX can be found here:
Other Letters:
Feel free to add dates, flights, etc., in order to plan DOs, etc.
Aug 4: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612
Aug 5: ICN-SFO (UA892)
Jason8612
Aug 7: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612
Aug 11: ICN-NRT-ORD (UA78, UA882)
Jason8612
Aug 14: BOS-IAD-NRT-ICN (UA285, UA803, UA79)
Deltspygt
Aug 19: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA352)
Deltspygt
Oct 1: UA433-UA893
JeredF +1
Oct 8: UA892-UA242
JeredF +1
Oct 9: BOS-SFO-ICN (UA433, UA893)
BigJC
Oct 13: ICN-NRT-ORD-BOS (UA78, UA882, UA744)
BigJC
Oct 21: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
Sterndogg +1
flyerdude88 (SFO - ICN portion only)
Oct 23: ICN - SFO UA 892
flyerdude88
Oct 27: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-BOS UA286
Sterndogg +1
Nov 05: BOS-ORD UA521, ORD-NRT UA881
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1
Nov 11: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-IAD UA727
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1
Nov 26: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-NRT UA837, NRT-ICN UA79
thepla
Nov 27: BOS-ORD-NRT-ICN (UA501, UA881, UA196)
BigJC+1
Nov 29: Planning 2 days in TPE, been to ICN
thepla
Dec 1: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-ORD UA698, ORD-BOS UA961
thepla
Dec 1: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA822)
BigJC+1
Dec 15: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
songzm
Dec 25: BOS-IAD UA285, IAD-NRT UA803, NRT-ICN UA79
Dinoscool3 +2
Dec 30: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA444
songzm
Dec 31: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA770
Dinoscool3 +2
Jan 11: BOS-SFO UA1523, Jan 12: SFO-ICN UA893
margarita girl
Jan 12: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
Zebranz
14 Jan: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
ORDOGG
19 Jan: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-ORD UA698 to ORD-BOS UA961
ORDOGG
Jan 22: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA500
margarita girl
Feb 5: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA242
Zebranz
CMB-DFW EY F
FARE IS GONE
FARE RULES (thanks to SQ421)
FRTLK Fare Rules (RT)
FOWLK Fare Rules (OW)
WHEN ARE YOU FLYING?
Feel free to add any additional cities you're leaving from!
Please slot yourselves in!!!
ex-CMB
Feb
Mar
8 - Darmajaya
12 - Thaidai
22 - Deadinabsentia
Apr
21 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
26 - tahsir21
May
28 - Upperdeck744
29 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)
Jun
12 - lelee
Jul
7 - HansGolden +6
8 - arcticbull + 1
11 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: SIN-CMB, DFW-MCI)
25 - Tycosiao
30 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: MCI-DFW, CMB-SIN)
Aug
17 - DC777Fan
26 - Yi Yang
31 - dcas
Sep
Oct
Nov
8 - harryhv
29 - stephem+4
Dec
6 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. roastpuff , JFKEZE (UL Code-share)
7 - DWFI
10 - jlisi984 + dad (CMB-AUH-DFW)
21 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)
ex-AUH
Jan
Feb
Mar
Apr
27 - RICHKLHS
May
Jun
29 - yerffej201
Jul
9 - HansGolden +6
27 - Tycosiao
Aug
Sep
Oct
Nov
30 - stephem+4 (to JFK)
Dec
7 - JFKEZE, DWFI [EY161 nonstop]
9 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. Roastpuff
ex-DFW
Jan
Feb
Mar
14 - Thaidai
15 - zainman +1
Apr
25 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
May
Jun
Jul
Aug
22 - arcticbull + 1
Sep
22 - bonsaisai (positioning flights ORD-DFW, CMB-SIN)
Oct
Nov
19 - harryhv->Paris
Dec
19 - Yi Yang, jona970318
24 - DWFI (EY160 nonstop)
26 - HansGolden +6 (CDG), LwoodY2K (AUH)
The current CTA decision on the Yangon deal is only for tickets canceled by SWISS Airlines for the seven merged complaints/companions and tickets canceled by Jet Airways for one complainant and companions
- It's not about other carriers because each carrier submits different tariffs.
- If you are not one of the complainants or their companions above who were mentioned in the respective cases, you need to submit a case yourself for hearing.
- There's currently one person who is on Iberia for CTA decision, one can either wait for results or submit a complaint to CTA.
Result of the current case for LX in brief is:
- CTA found 5(F) in the tariff used to be unclear for canceling tickets on erroneously quoted fares.
- 5(F) is unjust and unreasonable and must be revised or taken down by July 9, 2013 (or SWISS can appeal by then)
- SWISS did not use its tariff correctly to cancel the tickets.
- SWISS must compensate one complainant's First Class ticket and any related expenses by July 18, 2013 provided with evidence.
- SWISS must transport other complainants (and their companions) in the original price charged with same booking class and routing by June 18, 2014.
Result of the current case for 9W in brief is:
- Tariff on file had no clauses for "erroneous fares" and was updated subsequently, which means it is not relevant to this event
- Therefore, 9W is to reinstate the tickets with a 1-year validity for transport between the same points and the same booking class.
CTA official news can be read here for general overview of the case.
Actual CTA case review can be found here for reference should you wish to file a complaint.
If you have a similar case that's with SWISS, you need to file with CTA to get a result through informal process first before it gets to formal process. The entire procedure can take up to 3 months for each and the result may not be same cause it's case-by-base and the reviewer of the case can be different.
To file an informal complaint with CTA, see here. Click through all of the pages to get to the online form for the informal complaint. Or click here.
To file a formal complaint after informal complaint has been closed, see here. Continue on to the next page to see the address or email address for the formal complaint.
The July 17th and 18th responses from LX can be found here:
Other Letters:
Feel free to add dates, flights, etc., in order to plan DOs, etc.
Aug 4: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612
Aug 5: ICN-SFO (UA892)
Jason8612
Aug 7: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612
Aug 11: ICN-NRT-ORD (UA78, UA882)
Jason8612
Aug 14: BOS-IAD-NRT-ICN (UA285, UA803, UA79)
Deltspygt
Aug 19: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA352)
Deltspygt
Oct 1: UA433-UA893
JeredF +1
Oct 8: UA892-UA242
JeredF +1
Oct 9: BOS-SFO-ICN (UA433, UA893)
BigJC
Oct 13: ICN-NRT-ORD-BOS (UA78, UA882, UA744)
BigJC
Oct 21: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
Sterndogg +1
flyerdude88 (SFO - ICN portion only)
Oct 23: ICN - SFO UA 892
flyerdude88
Oct 27: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-BOS UA286
Sterndogg +1
Nov 05: BOS-ORD UA521, ORD-NRT UA881
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1
Nov 11: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-IAD UA727
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1
Nov 26: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-NRT UA837, NRT-ICN UA79
thepla
Nov 27: BOS-ORD-NRT-ICN (UA501, UA881, UA196)
BigJC+1
Nov 29: Planning 2 days in TPE, been to ICN
thepla
Dec 1: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-ORD UA698, ORD-BOS UA961
thepla
Dec 1: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA822)
BigJC+1
Dec 15: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
songzm
Dec 25: BOS-IAD UA285, IAD-NRT UA803, NRT-ICN UA79
Dinoscool3 +2
Dec 30: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA444
songzm
Dec 31: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA770
Dinoscool3 +2
Jan 11: BOS-SFO UA1523, Jan 12: SFO-ICN UA893
margarita girl
Jan 12: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
Zebranz
14 Jan: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
ORDOGG
19 Jan: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-ORD UA698 to ORD-BOS UA961
ORDOGG
Jan 22: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA500
margarita girl
Feb 5: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA242
Zebranz
CMB-DFW EY F
FARE IS GONE
FARE RULES (thanks to SQ421)
FRTLK Fare Rules (RT)
FOWLK Fare Rules (OW)
WHEN ARE YOU FLYING?
Feel free to add any additional cities you're leaving from!
Please slot yourselves in!!!
ex-CMB
Feb
Mar
8 - Darmajaya
12 - Thaidai
22 - Deadinabsentia
Apr
21 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
26 - tahsir21
May
28 - Upperdeck744
29 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)
Jun
12 - lelee
Jul
7 - HansGolden +6
8 - arcticbull + 1
11 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: SIN-CMB, DFW-MCI)
25 - Tycosiao
30 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: MCI-DFW, CMB-SIN)
Aug
17 - DC777Fan
26 - Yi Yang
31 - dcas
Sep
Oct
Nov
8 - harryhv
29 - stephem+4
Dec
6 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. roastpuff , JFKEZE (UL Code-share)
7 - DWFI
10 - jlisi984 + dad (CMB-AUH-DFW)
21 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)
ex-AUH
Jan
Feb
Mar
Apr
27 - RICHKLHS
May
Jun
29 - yerffej201
Jul
9 - HansGolden +6
27 - Tycosiao
Aug
Sep
Oct
Nov
30 - stephem+4 (to JFK)
Dec
7 - JFKEZE, DWFI [EY161 nonstop]
9 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. Roastpuff
ex-DFW
Jan
Feb
Mar
14 - Thaidai
15 - zainman +1
Apr
25 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
May
Jun
Jul
Aug
22 - arcticbull + 1
Sep
22 - bonsaisai (positioning flights ORD-DFW, CMB-SIN)
Oct
Nov
19 - harryhv->Paris
Dec
19 - Yi Yang, jona970318
24 - DWFI (EY160 nonstop)
26 - HansGolden +6 (CDG), LwoodY2K (AUH)
[PREM FARE GONE] RGN First class comes back again!!!!
Jul 8, 2014, 3:51 pm
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Denver • DEN-APA
Programs: AF Platinum, EK Gold, AA EXP, UA 1K, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 21,602
Just checked my October rez, where my 90 minute connection is down to 68 minutes. Hmmm.
OK, I know that UA has cut back service, but that's a long day without a meal.
OK, I know that UA has cut back service, but that's a long day without a meal.
Jul 9, 2014, 5:44 am
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,187
The dismissal of the case against the 83 is online too: https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/202-c-a-2014
Jul 10, 2014, 9:37 pm
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: CBR
Programs: QF WP, AC*G
Posts: 1,223
A person may have purchased the ticket from another airline, but it is the carrier who performs the downgrade who must pay the compensation.
So LX's initial response is likely to be 'the passenger has no valid ticket'.
Note that the CTA specifically refers to tickets issued by another carrier in its decision, particularly with reference to a downgrade on the last segment.
The CTA finds that there was no binding contract on Swiss. And that the downgrade was a goodwill gesture by them.
It is likely Swiss would run the same argument if this matter was pursued in Europe.
The question is whether of not they would be successful.
So LX's initial response is likely to be 'the passenger has no valid ticket'.
Note that the CTA specifically refers to tickets issued by another carrier in its decision, particularly with reference to a downgrade on the last segment.
The CTA finds that there was no binding contract on Swiss. And that the downgrade was a goodwill gesture by them.
It is likely Swiss would run the same argument if this matter was pursued in Europe.
The question is whether of not they would be successful.
The situation where a contract is agreed between the passenger and the plating carrier but the marketing carrier of any segment can determine it not to be valid makes a mockery of the interline ticketing process.
I'm not convinced such an argument would sway the CTA or European authorities but is also isn't one that appears to have been considered.
Jul 10, 2014, 9:48 pm
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: AU
Programs: former Olympic Airways Gold (yeah - still proud of that!)
Posts: 14,406
Thanks. I didn't see that part of the decision by the CTA. On one level it makes sense. At the same time, I still think that the construction is that LX was never bound by a contract between passenger and them; they were rather bound by the interline agreement between LX and the plating carrier (which presumably LX considers to be valid).
The situation where a contract is agreed between the passenger and the plating carrier but the marketing carrier of any segment can determine it not to be valid makes a mockery of the interline ticketing process.
I'm not convinced such an argument would sway the CTA or European authorities but is also isn't one that appears to have been considered.
The situation where a contract is agreed between the passenger and the plating carrier but the marketing carrier of any segment can determine it not to be valid makes a mockery of the interline ticketing process.
I'm not convinced such an argument would sway the CTA or European authorities but is also isn't one that appears to have been considered.
If I have this correctly, the CTA was saying that there was never a valid contract in the first place with these tickets, and the actions of any airline deciding to carry passengers despite this didn't subsequently validate the contract.
Last edited by LHR/MEL/Europe FF; Jul 10, 2014 at 9:56 pm
Jul 11, 2014, 1:43 am
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: CBR
Programs: QF WP, AC*G
Posts: 1,223
That said, I don't think we can go that far. Whether the contract was validly formed in the presence of mistake on the part of the ticketing carrier will be determined by the actions of the contracting parties. LX has asserted at all times that there was no contract and that they did not respect the existence of the tickets. Other carriers acted differently insofar as they acknowledged that transport was occurring under a valid ticket as far as they were concerned.
Given contract law is about the meeting of minds, once the mistaken party accepts the contract knowing of the mistake, there is a contract.
As for the issue of agency, that becomes far more complex. Given an agent acts directly on behalf of a principal, and their actions can then be attributed to the principal, then if the agent accepts that they have, as agent, created entered into a contract with the passenger on behalf of the principal, that would effectively be the same as the principal accepting the existence of the relationship. Admittedly, that is my recollection from first-year contracts law but it seems that these tickets are far more complex.
Again, I would expect LX to argue there was no contract and I expect that you would need to be willing to fight in European courts for an outcome. I am not willing to put the effort in to do that given the minimal potential return.
Jul 14, 2014, 10:00 pm
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: LAN, FNT, GRR, DTW
Programs: UA Plat
Posts: 346
Just got back from my trip. Did not try to add NRT stopover and no luck adding the US ones.
Service on SFO-ICN was excellent. Many of the wines that are actually printed in the menu! Food was bad - no other way of putting it. The food I had in the Asiana lounge was superior.
Service on SFO-ICN was excellent. Many of the wines that are actually printed in the menu! Food was bad - no other way of putting it. The food I had in the Asiana lounge was superior.
Jul 14, 2014, 10:11 pm
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 179
Just got back from my trip. Did not try to add NRT stopover and no luck adding the US ones.
Service on SFO-ICN was excellent. Many of the wines that are actually printed in the menu! Food was bad - no other way of putting it. The food I had in the Asiana lounge was superior.
Service on SFO-ICN was excellent. Many of the wines that are actually printed in the menu! Food was bad - no other way of putting it. The food I had in the Asiana lounge was superior.
Jul 14, 2014, 11:43 pm
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: LAN, FNT, GRR, DTW
Programs: UA Plat
Posts: 346
a) though the UA club after departure.
b) calling after departure
Did not try the site for NRT stop over as my original flight was SFO-ICN and not sure if that could be done by the website. Anyhow, I was happier in Korea.
Also as an FYI - the domestic legs credit for RDM @ 1.75x flight miles as expected.
Jul 18, 2014, 11:20 am
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: TPE, LAX
Programs: LH Senator, IHG Plat, Hilton Gold
Posts: 596
TPE-SFO-SMF-ORD-LAX-TPE in August
and immediately the next day,
TPE-HKG-FRA-LIS-ORY-DUS-POZ-VIE-LHR-TPE-HKG. August-September
Also got a Croatia/Slovenia trip in September.
Going to Hokkaido, Fukuoka in October.
And last but not least, possible Iceland trip in December/January.
I think we need a break..
Jul 18, 2014, 11:55 am
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: YVR
Programs: Marriott Gold
Posts: 952
That's quite the itinerary. 
Okay, I don't blame you for canceling - I'd be way too tired.
I have a Korea trip (YVR-SEA-ICN-SEA-YVR) in the middle of November, approximately 2 weeks before the EY flight, but it's only for 5 days. However, it's in Y, so I'll appreciate my F flight even more.
Okay, I don't blame you for canceling - I'd be way too tired. I have a Korea trip (YVR-SEA-ICN-SEA-YVR) in the middle of November, approximately 2 weeks before the EY flight, but it's only for 5 days. However, it's in Y, so I'll appreciate my F flight even more.
Jul 18, 2014, 8:08 pm
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: SEA
Programs: AS 75K
Posts: 759
I know I'm currently regretting my choice of returning in December - getting an award flight back has much more limited options than normal and hotels in warm areas are more expensive. Would rather have it be early December or February.
I should probably try to change it soon to see if it actually reprices at the price it should or if it's only at current prices...
I should probably try to change it soon to see if it actually reprices at the price it should or if it's only at current prices...