Jun 19, 2013, 9:45 pm

FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides

Last edit by: fti

People, please edit/use the wiki so same questions are not always asked.

The current CTA decision on the Yangon deal is only for tickets canceled by SWISS Airlines for the seven merged complaints/companions and tickets canceled by Jet Airways for one complainant and companions
- It's not about other carriers because each carrier submits different tariffs.
- If you are not one of the complainants or their companions above who were mentioned in the respective cases, you need to submit a case yourself for hearing.
- There's currently one person who is on Iberia for CTA decision, one can either wait for results or submit a complaint to CTA.

Result of the current case for LX in brief is:
- CTA found 5(F) in the tariff used to be unclear for canceling tickets on erroneously quoted fares.
- 5(F) is unjust and unreasonable and must be revised or taken down by July 9, 2013 (or SWISS can appeal by then)
- SWISS did not use its tariff correctly to cancel the tickets.
- SWISS must compensate one complainant's First Class ticket and any related expenses by July 18, 2013 provided with evidence.
- SWISS must transport other complainants (and their companions) in the original price charged with same booking class and routing by June 18, 2014.

Result of the current case for 9W in brief is:
- Tariff on file had no clauses for "erroneous fares" and was updated subsequently, which means it is not relevant to this event
- Therefore, 9W is to reinstate the tickets with a 1-year validity for transport between the same points and the same booking class.

CTA official news can be read here for general overview of the case.

Actual CTA case review can be found here for reference should you wish to file a complaint.

If you have a similar case that's with SWISS, you need to file with CTA to get a result through informal process first before it gets to formal process. The entire procedure can take up to 3 months for each and the result may not be same cause it's case-by-base and the reviewer of the case can be different.

To file an informal complaint with CTA, see here. Click through all of the pages to get to the online form for the informal complaint. Or click here.

To file a formal complaint after informal complaint has been closed, see here. Continue on to the next page to see the address or email address for the formal complaint.

The July 17th and 18th responses from LX can be found here:

Other Letters:

Feel free to add dates, flights, etc., in order to plan DOs, etc.

Aug 4: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612

Aug 5: ICN-SFO (UA892)
Jason8612

Aug 7: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612

Aug 11: ICN-NRT-ORD (UA78, UA882)
Jason8612

Aug 14: BOS-IAD-NRT-ICN (UA285, UA803, UA79)
Deltspygt

Aug 19: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA352)
Deltspygt

Oct 1: UA433-UA893
JeredF +1

Oct 8: UA892-UA242
JeredF +1

Oct 9: BOS-SFO-ICN (UA433, UA893)
BigJC

Oct 13: ICN-NRT-ORD-BOS (UA78, UA882, UA744)
BigJC

Oct 21: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
Sterndogg +1
flyerdude88 (SFO - ICN portion only)

Oct 23: ICN - SFO UA 892
flyerdude88

Oct 27: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-BOS UA286
Sterndogg +1

Nov 05: BOS-ORD UA521, ORD-NRT UA881
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1

Nov 11: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-IAD UA727
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1

Nov 26: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-NRT UA837, NRT-ICN UA79
thepla

Nov 27: BOS-ORD-NRT-ICN (UA501, UA881, UA196)
BigJC+1

Nov 29: Planning 2 days in TPE, been to ICN
thepla

Dec 1: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-ORD UA698, ORD-BOS UA961
thepla

Dec 1: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA822)
BigJC+1

Dec 15: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
songzm

Dec 25: BOS-IAD UA285, IAD-NRT UA803, NRT-ICN UA79
Dinoscool3 +2

Dec 30: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA444
songzm

Dec 31: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA770
Dinoscool3 +2

Jan 11: BOS-SFO UA1523, Jan 12: SFO-ICN UA893
margarita girl

Jan 12: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
Zebranz

14 Jan: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
ORDOGG

19 Jan: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-ORD UA698 to ORD-BOS UA961
ORDOGG

Jan 22: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA500
margarita girl

Feb 5: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA242
Zebranz

CMB-DFW EY F

FARE IS GONE

FARE RULES (thanks to SQ421)
FRTLK Fare Rules (RT)
FOWLK Fare Rules (OW)

WHEN ARE YOU FLYING?
Feel free to add any additional cities you're leaving from!
Please slot yourselves in!!!

ex-CMB
Feb

Mar
8 - Darmajaya
12 - Thaidai
22 - Deadinabsentia

Apr
21 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
26 - tahsir21

May
28 - Upperdeck744
29 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)

Jun
12 - lelee

Jul
7 - HansGolden +6
8 - arcticbull + 1
11 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: SIN-CMB, DFW-MCI)
25 - Tycosiao
30 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: MCI-DFW, CMB-SIN)

Aug
17 - DC777Fan
26 - Yi Yang
31 - dcas

Sep

Oct

Nov
8 - harryhv
29 - stephem+4

Dec
6 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. roastpuff , JFKEZE (UL Code-share)
7 - DWFI
10 - jlisi984 + dad (CMB-AUH-DFW)
21 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)

ex-AUH
Jan

Feb

Mar

Apr
27 - RICHKLHS

May

Jun
29 - yerffej201

Jul
9 - HansGolden +6
27 - Tycosiao

Aug

Sep

Oct

Nov
30 - stephem+4 (to JFK)

Dec
7 - JFKEZE, DWFI [EY161 nonstop]
9 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. Roastpuff

ex-DFW
Jan

Feb

Mar
14 - Thaidai
15 - zainman +1

Apr
25 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir

May

Jun

Jul

Aug
22 - arcticbull + 1

Sep
22 - bonsaisai (positioning flights ORD-DFW, CMB-SIN)

Oct

Nov
19 - harryhv->Paris

Dec
19 - Yi Yang, jona970318
24 - DWFI (EY160 nonstop)
26 - HansGolden +6 (CDG), LwoodY2K (AUH)

[PREM FARE GONE] RGN First class comes back again!!!!

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Jun 1, 2014, 7:42 pm

#10501

emma dog

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: Hotlanta.

Programs: I've gone underground!

Posts: 4,604

My ticket priced at $789. One way. One ticket.

Jun 2, 2014, 2:54 pm

#10502

Deltahater

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: SAT

Programs: AA EXP BA Gold, TK Gold, Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, AS 100K, QR PLT, SAS Gold, IHG Spire, AMR

Posts: 5,898

Quote:

Originally Posted by largeeyes

LOL What?! me? I flew my RGN ticket...sorry about your luck. I paid, if I remember correctly something like $280...maybe a bit more.

No, not every post is about you. I don't believe you have an airline affliation beyond being a customer/passenger.

I flew my SQ RGN tickets, just LX is being difficult.

Jun 3, 2014, 3:47 pm

#10503

k_sheep

Join Date: Mar 2007

Location: BNE, OOL

Programs: QFF WP, VA SG, Hhonors Diamond

Posts: 361

Well I heard back from DoT regarding my complaint (RE: not allowing date changes as per fare rule). No go

"However, we have reviewed the conditions of carriage and the fare terms associated with this fare. Under paragraphs 3.3.2 and 3.3.4, the carrier may calculate a new fare for passenger-initiated schedule changes. Additionally, under the fare terms, the carrier has the option to re-price the ticket when the passenger voluntarily changes the itinerary (section 31 of the fare terms). Therefore, Etihad’s requirement that you pay the fare difference for schedule changes that you have initiated is not a prohibited post-purchase price increase under Departmental regulations."

Sigh!

Jun 3, 2014, 3:53 pm

#10504

CDKing

FlyerTalk Evangelist

Join Date: Dec 2007

Location: BOS/ORH

Programs: AS 75K

Posts: 18,323

Quote:

Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF

I think that's the main worry... how will airlines use this decision to influence potential future DOT actions against mistake fares?

Will they try and argue that mistakes, originating in foreign countries, where they allege passengers are 'predatory' or 'acting unfairly' should somehow be excluded from the mistake fare provisions? Could DOT agree with the airlines that protection should not be offered in those cases?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDKing

Unless DOT changes the exiting rule, they wont. 2 different countries, 2 different regulations, DOT has already shown they don't care of its an obvious mistake or not (See the the cheap UA and DL fares from late last year). In the FOIA request on the RGN fare, DL tried to add specific language in their COC that they don't plan on offering $0 fare as a way to get around honoring some mistakes and DOT said NO.

Looks like you may be right after all:

The DOT Wants to Clamp Down on Forums and Blogs Spreading Mistake Fares and Having them Honored (Please note this is a Blog post link, Not my blog)

Last edited by CDKing; Jun 3, 2014 at 4:00 pm

Jun 3, 2014, 5:26 pm

#10505

Lack

Join Date: Mar 2008

Posts: 4,859

Seems like a poorly build facade, since they already exercised their discretion on connecting traffic in our case.

Jun 3, 2014, 5:47 pm

#10506

TGflyergirl

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: Here

Posts: 1,907

Quote:

Originally Posted by k_sheep

Well I heard back from DoT regarding my complaint (RE: not allowing date changes as per fare rule). No go

Is this in reference to date changes pre travel or post 1st leg?

One thing I think most people don't realise is that even in what is nominally the most "flexiest of flex" tickets, reprices before travel will always occur. It's not usually transparent on a $10,000 fare because those fares rarely change or get refiled.

As an example When you've paid those YY or super full fares - when you make a change pre 1st leg - the actual process is 1) no change fee calculated (as it's flex after all), and 2) $10,000 repriced to $10,000, therefore no ADC, and it's reissued, not revalidated - at no cost to the passenger. This is standard practise and the DOT is correct in saying that EY can do that.

If you're referring to changes made post 1st leg flown - then in that instance DOT is wrong as the fare should allow a revalidation.

Jun 3, 2014, 5:50 pm

#10507

Dr. HFH

FlyerTalk Evangelist

Join Date: Jan 2007

Location: BOS/UTH

Programs: AA LT PLT; QR GLD; Bonvoy LT TIT

Posts: 12,757

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDKing

The DOT Wants to Clamp Down on Forums and Blogs Spreading Mistake Fares and Having them Honored

Potentially misleading title, IMO. As I read it, the DOT wants to clamp down on 1) Forums and Blogs Spreading Mistake Fares, and 2) Having them Honored.

There's a non-trivial free speech problem with #1, of course.

Jun 4, 2014, 2:26 am

#10508

IAN-UK

FlyerTalk Evangelist

Join Date: Aug 2000

Location: London

Programs: Hilton, IHG - BA, GA, LH, QR, SV, TK

Posts: 17,008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lack

Seems like a poorly build facade, since they already exercised their discretion on connecting traffic in our case.

That discretion was in the past. Since then, activity has made the DOT position look distinctly odd, and I'm pretty sure that pressure from airline lobby groups has forced legislators into defensive positions. SWISS et al didn't invest millions to see the whole mess repeated some time in the future.

The Rangoon fiasco and the UA oops!-fare have thrown a focus on legislation which protects those exploiting mistakes.

I imagine the law was initially heralded as protecting the innocent from the capricious might of the airline industry, and its use as a shield for "predatory opportunists" is becoming an embarrassment.

One way out seems to be to redraft the rules so that mistakes need not be honoured. Messy.

It could be wiser, avoiding an embarrassing climb down, to leave things in place but shift the emphasis onto a the role of the existing legislation in educating carriers into avoiding mistakes in the first place.

Attempting to ban the promulgation of mistake fares is just plain daft, and has no legs at all: it smacks of desperation. But if it really is a tactic under discussion, it gives an idea of the pressure DOT is under.

Jun 4, 2014, 3:15 am

#10509

LHR/MEL/Europe FF

FlyerTalk Evangelist

Join Date: Mar 2001

Location: AU

Programs: former Olympic Airways Gold (yeah - still proud of that!)

Posts: 14,406

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAN-UK

There is no call, as far as I can see, to ban the promulgation of mistake fares via blogging sites. The DOT is asking (from what has been quoted) for submissions on how to deal with 'bad actors' - which I took to mean some passengers (and would probably include the blogger themselves as a passenger!), not an individual blogger's ability to write anything.

I think there needs to be protection... an airline can't advertise $1 fares as a clear promotion and then later turn around and say it was a mistake.

But where something is unintentional, that is perhaps a different story. I would not consider 'we set the fare at $1000 but now think that is too low' to be unintentional. It must be an act to which the airline did not turn its mind at any time.

Jun 4, 2014, 4:07 am

#10510

danger

Join Date: Apr 2007

Programs: QF, VA, AC, Hyatt, Marriott

Posts: 3,784

Surely one of the key messages to come out of the CTA Swiss ruling is that words like "mistake" and "error" should not be used by us forum (and blogger) folk.

Jun 4, 2014, 4:12 am

#10511

Dr. HFH

FlyerTalk Evangelist

Join Date: Jan 2007

Location: BOS/UTH

Programs: AA LT PLT; QR GLD; Bonvoy LT TIT

Posts: 12,757

Quote:

Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF

There is no call, as far as I can see, to ban the promulgation of mistake fares via blogging sites.

Good, as it couldn't happen in the U.S. Freedom of speech, and all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF

But where something is unintentional, that is perhaps a different story. I would not consider 'we set the fare at $1000 but now think that is too low' to be unintentional. It must be an act to which the airline did not turn its mind at any time.

Agreed. We should receive protection against predatory practices by the airlines just as the airlines should receive protection against predatory practices by us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by danger

Surely one of the key messages to come out of the CTA Swiss ruling is that words like "mistake" and "error" should not be used by us forum (and blogger) folk.

I don't really think that this matters. They're not dopes and they are fluent in English. If we use other vocabulary or oblique references, they'll still get it. As would any judge.

Last edited by Dr. HFH; Jun 4, 2014 at 8:03 am

Jun 4, 2014, 7:49 am

#10512

Deltahater

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: SAT

Programs: AA EXP BA Gold, TK Gold, Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, AS 100K, QR PLT, SAS Gold, IHG Spire, AMR

Posts: 5,898

The secret alternative could be that the airlines either simplify their fare structures or increase their checks and balances.
When walmart has a price mistake, they honor it.
When I have a pricing mistake in my business, I honor it.
How is my neighbor supposed to know that the $35 rate NYC-MXP is intentional or not?

Jun 4, 2014, 8:05 am

#10513

Dr. HFH

FlyerTalk Evangelist

Join Date: Jan 2007

Location: BOS/UTH

Programs: AA LT PLT; QR GLD; Bonvoy LT TIT

Posts: 12,757

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltahater

How is my neighbor supposed to know that the $35 rate NYC-MXP is intentional or not?

No question that it's a slippery slope. How about the sign on the new Mercedes which says $125.000, using a period instead of a comma?

Jun 4, 2014, 3:11 pm

#10514

LHR/MEL/Europe FF

FlyerTalk Evangelist

Join Date: Mar 2001

Location: AU

Programs: former Olympic Airways Gold (yeah - still proud of that!)

Posts: 14,406

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltahater

How is my neighbor supposed to know that the $35 rate NYC-MXP is intentional or not?

Your neighbour can call the airline and ask them.

Jun 4, 2014, 11:48 pm

#10515

Keter

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: AMS

Programs: KL PFL; BA Gold; A3 Silver; EY Silver; SU Silver

Posts: 2,488

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGflyergirl

If you're referring to changes made post 1st leg flown - then in that instance DOT is wrong as the fare should allow a revalidation.

Yes, probably the question shal excplicitly say what the scenario questioned is and best also refer to fare rules, CoC and ticket changes best practices (ie for international ticket, the fare applied is that of the date of sale, at least for simple changes like date change).