Jun 19, 2013, 9:45 pm

FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides

Last edit by: fti

People, please edit/use the wiki so same questions are not always asked.

The current CTA decision on the Yangon deal is only for tickets canceled by SWISS Airlines for the seven merged complaints/companions and tickets canceled by Jet Airways for one complainant and companions
- It's not about other carriers because each carrier submits different tariffs.
- If you are not one of the complainants or their companions above who were mentioned in the respective cases, you need to submit a case yourself for hearing.
- There's currently one person who is on Iberia for CTA decision, one can either wait for results or submit a complaint to CTA.

Result of the current case for LX in brief is:
- CTA found 5(F) in the tariff used to be unclear for canceling tickets on erroneously quoted fares.
- 5(F) is unjust and unreasonable and must be revised or taken down by July 9, 2013 (or SWISS can appeal by then)
- SWISS did not use its tariff correctly to cancel the tickets.
- SWISS must compensate one complainant's First Class ticket and any related expenses by July 18, 2013 provided with evidence.
- SWISS must transport other complainants (and their companions) in the original price charged with same booking class and routing by June 18, 2014.

Result of the current case for 9W in brief is:
- Tariff on file had no clauses for "erroneous fares" and was updated subsequently, which means it is not relevant to this event
- Therefore, 9W is to reinstate the tickets with a 1-year validity for transport between the same points and the same booking class.

CTA official news can be read here for general overview of the case.

Actual CTA case review can be found here for reference should you wish to file a complaint.

If you have a similar case that's with SWISS, you need to file with CTA to get a result through informal process first before it gets to formal process. The entire procedure can take up to 3 months for each and the result may not be same cause it's case-by-base and the reviewer of the case can be different.

To file an informal complaint with CTA, see here. Click through all of the pages to get to the online form for the informal complaint. Or click here.

To file a formal complaint after informal complaint has been closed, see here. Continue on to the next page to see the address or email address for the formal complaint.

The July 17th and 18th responses from LX can be found here:

Other Letters:

Feel free to add dates, flights, etc., in order to plan DOs, etc.

Aug 4: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612

Aug 5: ICN-SFO (UA892)
Jason8612

Aug 7: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612

Aug 11: ICN-NRT-ORD (UA78, UA882)
Jason8612

Aug 14: BOS-IAD-NRT-ICN (UA285, UA803, UA79)
Deltspygt

Aug 19: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA352)
Deltspygt

Oct 1: UA433-UA893
JeredF +1

Oct 8: UA892-UA242
JeredF +1

Oct 9: BOS-SFO-ICN (UA433, UA893)
BigJC

Oct 13: ICN-NRT-ORD-BOS (UA78, UA882, UA744)
BigJC

Oct 21: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
Sterndogg +1
flyerdude88 (SFO - ICN portion only)

Oct 23: ICN - SFO UA 892
flyerdude88

Oct 27: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-BOS UA286
Sterndogg +1

Nov 05: BOS-ORD UA521, ORD-NRT UA881
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1

Nov 11: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-IAD UA727
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1

Nov 26: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-NRT UA837, NRT-ICN UA79
thepla

Nov 27: BOS-ORD-NRT-ICN (UA501, UA881, UA196)
BigJC+1

Nov 29: Planning 2 days in TPE, been to ICN
thepla

Dec 1: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-ORD UA698, ORD-BOS UA961
thepla

Dec 1: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA822)
BigJC+1

Dec 15: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
songzm

Dec 25: BOS-IAD UA285, IAD-NRT UA803, NRT-ICN UA79
Dinoscool3 +2

Dec 30: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA444
songzm

Dec 31: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA770
Dinoscool3 +2

Jan 11: BOS-SFO UA1523, Jan 12: SFO-ICN UA893
margarita girl

Jan 12: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
Zebranz

14 Jan: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
ORDOGG

19 Jan: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-ORD UA698 to ORD-BOS UA961
ORDOGG

Jan 22: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA500
margarita girl

Feb 5: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA242
Zebranz

CMB-DFW EY F

FARE IS GONE

FARE RULES (thanks to SQ421)
FRTLK Fare Rules (RT)
FOWLK Fare Rules (OW)

WHEN ARE YOU FLYING?
Feel free to add any additional cities you're leaving from!
Please slot yourselves in!!!

ex-CMB
Feb

Mar
8 - Darmajaya
12 - Thaidai
22 - Deadinabsentia

Apr
21 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
26 - tahsir21

May
28 - Upperdeck744
29 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)

Jun
12 - lelee

Jul
7 - HansGolden +6
8 - arcticbull + 1
11 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: SIN-CMB, DFW-MCI)
25 - Tycosiao
30 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: MCI-DFW, CMB-SIN)

Aug
17 - DC777Fan
26 - Yi Yang
31 - dcas

Sep

Oct

Nov
8 - harryhv
29 - stephem+4

Dec
6 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. roastpuff , JFKEZE (UL Code-share)
7 - DWFI
10 - jlisi984 + dad (CMB-AUH-DFW)
21 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)

ex-AUH
Jan

Feb

Mar

Apr
27 - RICHKLHS

May

Jun
29 - yerffej201

Jul
9 - HansGolden +6
27 - Tycosiao

Aug

Sep

Oct

Nov
30 - stephem+4 (to JFK)

Dec
7 - JFKEZE, DWFI [EY161 nonstop]
9 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. Roastpuff

ex-DFW
Jan

Feb

Mar
14 - Thaidai
15 - zainman +1

Apr
25 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir

May

Jun

Jul

Aug
22 - arcticbull + 1

Sep
22 - bonsaisai (positioning flights ORD-DFW, CMB-SIN)

Oct

Nov
19 - harryhv->Paris

Dec
19 - Yi Yang, jona970318
24 - DWFI (EY160 nonstop)
26 - HansGolden +6 (CDG), LwoodY2K (AUH)

[PREM FARE GONE] RGN First class comes back again!!!!

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Aug 8, 2014, 1:06 am

#10636

typical

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IAN-UK

There've been a number of claims they could easily have been confused with legitimate fares fully intended for retail sale to the public. But examples have been vague and unsubstantiated. The only ones I have any experience of were the (now ancient) Tripoli fares, but these were hardly straightforward....

They were pretty easy when I used them

Tripoli was quite a place, back then.

The BA Seoul fare has been extensively quoted. That cost about $1200 return, for two J segments each of about 5,500 miles. More importantly, it was something like a 70% discount on the normal J cost. And plenty of FTers piled in, see: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...excursion.html - of course it was all over the blogs as well. The cost today would be over GBP6,000, looking at ba.com - with about GBP5,600 of that being the "fare", the "fare" portion of the sale fare would have been a tiny percentage of the "usual" cost.

Airlines do have "silly" sale fares.

Aug 8, 2014, 1:46 am

#10637

LHR/MEL/Europe FF

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Quote:

Originally Posted by typical

They were pretty easy when I used them

The CTA decision would not apply to the BA promotion to Seoul. It was a piece of marketing, with the airline aware of what it was doing: it was no mistake.

Aug 8, 2014, 1:50 am

#10638

typical

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF

The CTA decision would not apply to the BA promotion to Seoul. It was a piece of marketing, with the airline aware of what it was doing: it was no mistake.

I have already responded to your argument along these lines:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/23280684-post10558.html

You will excuse me for not repeating myself

Aug 8, 2014, 2:02 am

#10639

LHR/MEL/Europe FF

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Quote:

Originally Posted by typical

I have already responded to your argument along these lines:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/23280684-post10558.html

You will excuse me for not repeating myself

And your response did not address the issue of a hidden one-off fare, that has to be specifically searched out and snapped up, with a warning 'do not call the airline', vs a fare which was across every media channel and clearly not a mistake.

As for dynamic pricing of regular coach fares, that is also well known and is standard. Intercontinental premium carrier First class fares for $150 (before tax) are not standard.

Aug 8, 2014, 2:10 am

#10640

typical

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF

Hidden? It was available on many OTAs.
One off? This was called R3 for a reason...

Quote:

Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF

As for dynamic pricing of regular coach fares, that is also well known and is standard. Intercontinental premium carrier First class fares for $150 (before tax) are not standard.

I didn't book a "premium carrier First class fare for $150 (before tax)". Perhaps some did. But my itinerary had more miles in J than F, and the cost was substantially more than $150.

In any case, we are not arguing whether they are "standard", we are arguing whether they are "obviously mistakes".

Aug 8, 2014, 3:08 am

#10641

lewende

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Quote:

Originally Posted by typical

They were pretty easy when I used them

I hope you were not referring BA J fare as a premium cabin comparison to R3 RGN promotion in your example. BA J, IMHO, is a very inferior product that may only out-compete PMUA J product, and it has nothing to be compared against SQ/LX/NH/DL F and J cabins appeared in R3 RGN fares.

Aug 8, 2014, 3:11 am

#10642

typical

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Quote:

Originally Posted by lewende

I hope you were not referring BA J fare as a premium cabin comparison to R3 RGN promotion in your example.

Why wouldn't I?

After all, one of my R3 segments was in... BA J...

Aug 8, 2014, 3:16 am

#10643

IAN-UK

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Quote:

Originally Posted by typical

The BA Seoul fare has been extensively quoted. That cost about $1200 return, for two J segments each of about 5,500 miles. More importantly, it was something like a 70% discount on the normal J cost. And plenty of FTers piled in, see: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...excursion.html - of course it was all over the blogs as well. The cost today would be over GBP6,000, looking at ba.com - with about GBP5,600 of that being the "fare", the "fare" portion of the sale fare would have been a tiny percentage of the "usual" cost.

Airlines do have "silly" sale fares.

Good try

BA Seoul has certainly been heavily quoted on this (and many other) threads, but:

It was in J. Not a single, tiny sector was in first-class.
It was a heavily promoted marketing gimmick to launch a new route/aircraft combo. £777 for a B777 - geddit? You couldn't miss the fanfares: there's no way you could believe it to be a mistake fare, or a regular fare, or anything other than a short-term promotional effort.
£777 is $1300 (OK, unfair of me - exchange rates have shifted against you!)
First-class WAS available at in the promotional confusion, but at considerably higher fares. As far as I remember you could get one way in first, the other in business, but this was around double the £777 fare.
and just to be really, really boring, a restricted BA LHR ICN business-class ticket in November/December of this year (the season of the original promo) can be bought from the airline for (all-in) £2710. First is £4000.

I'm just back from a J-class trip Paris San Francisco, returning from Seattle, for a similar (£800) fare. Two sectors in first, but these were the ersatz AA two-class version of first-class

And, to be honest, I'm not entirely convinced Iberia fully intended to put tickets on sale at this fare. So by my own rules I can't throw this into the Rangon ballpark.

Aug 8, 2014, 3:20 am

#10644

typical

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IAN-UK

And, to be honest, I'm not entirely convinced Iberia fully intended to put tickets on sale at this fare. So by my own rules I can't throw this into the Rangon ballpark.

Well, that's the crux, isn't it? Someone upthread rolled their eyes at my question of "what does know mean", but as you point out, even booked directly with the airline it's difficult to know whether a fare is a mistake, a sale fare, a sale fare they later reclassify as a mistake, a sale fare they might want to stop people flying on later, etc. etc.

Of course it differs by degrees, and sure the Seoul fare was heavily advertised. But that isn't the point. CTA appeared to accept the argument that - purely because of the low cost - bookers should have known R3 fares were "too cheap". I still think that is both wrong and dangerous.

(ETA: And of course, the reason the Seoul fare is the first example people have turned to is because the sheer volume of advertising makes it pretty certain that it wasn't a mistake, and ensured people knew about it. The majority of low fares simply don't get that kind of advertising - they are entered into computers somewhere and thrown up by computers somewhere else when people search for flights. Low fare? Mistake? How can you tell? I maintain the price is not a valid way to tell. And if we are in a world where we think "this looks cheap, I better call the airline to double check" then many airlines really better upgrade their call centres.)

Last edited by typical; Aug 8, 2014 at 4:19 am

Aug 8, 2014, 5:08 pm

#10645

IAN-UK

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Quote:

Originally Posted by typical

Look - I knew from the start that the Rangoon fare was a mistake. I'd be surprised if deep down, you with 5K posts under your FTbelt, didn't know it too.

My questions here relate to the contention that an innocent could have happened upon a Rangoon Montreal first-class ticket costing peanuts and felt it must be fine because there are regularly other extreme value but fully kosher fares offered.

I would dearly love that to be true and I'd love to learn of instances where it has been true. But BA Seoul simply doesn't hack it: TIP fares of a decade ago were sort of legit: I'm not sure about the CMB fares, I could never work them out - not much else i can think of.

Aug 8, 2014, 6:10 pm

#10646

typical

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IAN-UK

Look - I knew from the start that the Rangoon fare was a mistake. I'd be surprised if deep down, you with 5K posts under your FTbelt, didn't know it too.

I only heard about the ex-RGN fares in R3, after a friend had booked and flown a couple of R1/R2 fares. People had clearly gone to town on those, and the airlines had the ability to closely monitor ex-RGN tickets. The cheap fares remained available. This wasn't a BA Seoul fully and obviously legitimate promotion - but it wasn't a $0 Iceland fare either.

Did I think it was very cheap? Yes. Did I think it was TOO cheap? No.

Any further discussion from me will have to wait for the CTA

Aug 8, 2014, 10:56 pm

#10647

jona970318

Join Date: Feb 2013

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Posts: 1,876

Just arrived in CMB from HKG and SIN on CX last night. I'll probably head to EY's city office this afternoon to see if I can get stuff sorted beforehand. Flying out in T-30 hours!

Aug 8, 2014, 11:29 pm

#10648

defurax

Join Date: Jul 2013

Programs: QF

Posts: 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by jona970318

Just arrived in CMB from HKG and SIN on CX last night. I'll probably head to EY's city office this afternoon to see if I can get stuff sorted beforehand. Flying out in T-30 hours!

Keep us posted! Is your first flight on UL or EY?

Aug 8, 2014, 11:37 pm

#10649

defurax

Join Date: Jul 2013

Programs: QF

Posts: 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by jona970318

Just arrived in CMB from HKG and SIN on CX last night. I'll probably head to EY's city office this afternoon to see if I can get stuff sorted beforehand. Flying out in T-30 hours!

Just so you know the office closes at 12:30 on Saturdays (so very early afternoon...)

Office address
Level 03, East Tower, World Trade Center, Colombo-01, Sri Lanka Sri Lanka
Business hours
Mon to Fri 8:30 AM - 5.00 PM, Sat and public holidays 08.30AM - 12.30PM
General contact
[email protected]
Flight reservations
0094 11 476 6500

Aug 9, 2014, 1:20 pm

#10650

stephem

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Manhattan Beach, California

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Posts: 6,367

Just an FYI, but there is one less option for positioning now. According to a thread in the CX forum, CX has cancelled its SIN-CMB flight effective in October I believe. Screws us up as we had 5x business class seats on that to get over to start this flight...