Denied boarding first flight by SN, due to lack of visa for connecting flight
Oct 16, 2015, 5:46 am
#46
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They do. Or rather, the immigration officer may ask for such a document for the purpose of establishing the purpose of the journey as well as establishing that the traveler has resources to return.
Well, my point would be. Most countries reserve the right to refuse foreigners, if they raise enough suspicion. I do not think the airline should be deciding factor here. The airline will be fined if the passenger cannot produce the required documents (e.g. US VWP requires an onward or return air ticket leaving the North American continent within 90 days).
Schengen countries do not explicitly a return or onward ticket (see the relevant quotes above from the Schengen border code, which Belgium is bound to). The airline won't be fined. The foreigner must have plausible proof how he intends to leave Schengen in time (an onward ticket to Russia + a plausible story on how to obtain a visa would suffice).
Oct 16, 2015, 6:08 am
#47
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The airline won't be fined. The foreigner must have plausible proof how he intends to leave Schengen in time (an onward ticket to Russia + a plausible story on how to obtain a visa would suffice).
Again, we simply do not have enough information here. The boarding denial in this situation is troubling enough to warrant further investigation. But I do not think that we can come to a firm conclusion.
Oct 16, 2015, 6:17 am
#48
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The traveler is supposed to have sufficient evidence to the satisfaction of the immigration officer, not just a "plausible story". The fact the legislation does not purport to exhaustively and definitively list what evidence is acceptable does not mean that there is no requirement to have any documentary evidence beyond a "plausible story".
While most things regarding immigration is clear, in the end any immigration officer can make it's own rules - and I've seen plenty of those myself.
A well-stamped passport (but still with enough space available to stamp) had me once almost denied entry into Singapore as the immigration officer said it was "too full" and that he'll let me in "just this time only". Needless to say, I used it to travel to another 7 or 8 countries afterwards (before having the possibility to get a new one at home) without any problems at all.
Plenty of cases where TWOV for China wasn't properly understood by CI agents too (not in China, but at checkin in Europe/Asia/US), with some being denied travel because of that.
And reports of hundreds of Swiss citizens every year alone turned away by US immigration are regularly hitting the newspapers locally.. must be thousands of Europeans alone that are sent back from the US, because US immigration officers "didn't liked something" on them. Pretty simple.. there is no "right" to be admitted into another country, even if you perfectly hold all documents.
Oct 16, 2015, 6:25 am
#49
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"plausible story"
--> OP should explain how he wants to do that. (I would assume it would be enough to send the US passport to Finland for that matter)
Moreover, there is a time limit on how early one may apply for a visa.
--> OP should explain that, as well. That could be a plausible explanation why the visa was not applied for in the US.
Oct 16, 2015, 6:35 am
#50
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The airline can certainly refuse boarding in the latter situation but should not deny boarding in the former one.
Oct 16, 2015, 6:43 am
#51
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A Russian visa application requires both an online application and, potentially, the provision of further supporting documentation on request:
- completed, signed visa application
- confirmation of, and register number from, the Uniform Federal Register of Tour Operators of the Federal Tourism Agency (aka "invitation from Russia")
- bank statement (if requested)
- statement from the employer regarding the applicant's wages for the previous 12, 6, or 1 month(s) (if requested)
- certificate of insurance valid in Russia for entire duration of stay (if requested)
- documents regarding the applicant's ownership of property in the country of his citizenship (if requested)
- a certificate on the makeup of the applicant's family (if requested)
This list is the result of the "Agreement between the Russian Federation and the United States of America on simplification of visa formalities for citizens of the two countries"
Obtaining a Russian visa is not a mere formality; it can require a lot of time and lots of planning. While there appears to be no strict requirement to apply in the country of normal residence (the online form allows you to nominate any Russian consulate/embassy for the collection of the visa (and the provision of all further documentation required) it is not exactly a process that is conducive to an "on-the-road" application as the OP seems to have expected. In fact, such an application may even attract additional scrutiny; it is doubtful whether all the required documentation would have been in the OP's possession, or that the visa would have been issued in time for the OP's original plans.
- completed, signed visa application
- confirmation of, and register number from, the Uniform Federal Register of Tour Operators of the Federal Tourism Agency (aka "invitation from Russia")
- bank statement (if requested)
- statement from the employer regarding the applicant's wages for the previous 12, 6, or 1 month(s) (if requested)
- certificate of insurance valid in Russia for entire duration of stay (if requested)
- documents regarding the applicant's ownership of property in the country of his citizenship (if requested)
- a certificate on the makeup of the applicant's family (if requested)
This list is the result of the "Agreement between the Russian Federation and the United States of America on simplification of visa formalities for citizens of the two countries"
Obtaining a Russian visa is not a mere formality; it can require a lot of time and lots of planning. While there appears to be no strict requirement to apply in the country of normal residence (the online form allows you to nominate any Russian consulate/embassy for the collection of the visa (and the provision of all further documentation required) it is not exactly a process that is conducive to an "on-the-road" application as the OP seems to have expected. In fact, such an application may even attract additional scrutiny; it is doubtful whether all the required documentation would have been in the OP's possession, or that the visa would have been issued in time for the OP's original plans.
Last edited by irishguy28; Oct 16, 2015 at 6:49 am
Oct 16, 2015, 7:55 am
#52
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First up, TIMATIC was installed to give agents and airlines a database to query to decide if the documents are complete or not. Agents are advised not to deviate from the database.
This is what an agent would see in TIMATIC if they entered that a US citizen is boarding in WAS for destination BRU and destination MOW:
Now, if transit in BRU is entered they see this:
So far so good. But remember, agents are not allowed to bend the rules, so what they usually do is pull up the reservation and click on a button or enter a command that tells them what to check for based on the booking.
Just fo kicks I just created a similar routing (IAD-BRU, one month break, BRU-DME, then back to JFK) in Amadeus and checked that reservation like an agent should:
So once an agents reads what the system is telling him/her, he will insist on seeing a visa before letting you board.Common sense may tell them something else, but that is what they are trained to do. @:-)
This is what an agent would see in TIMATIC if they entered that a US citizen is boarding in WAS for destination BRU and destination MOW:
Code:
>TIRV/NAUSA/EMWAS/DEBRU/DEMOW
TIMATIC-3 / 16OCT15 / 1331 UTC
NATIONAL USA (US) /EMBARKATION USA (US)
DESTINATION BELGIUM (BE) /DESTINATION RUSSIAN FED. (RU)
VISA DESTINATION BELGIUM (BE)
...... NORMAL PASSPORTS ONLY ......
PASSPORT REQUIRED.
- PASSPORTS AND OTHER DOCUMENTS ACCEPTED FOR ENTRY MUST BE
VALID FOR A MINIMUM OF 3 MONTHS BEYOND THE PERIOD OF
>MDTI
>MD
INTENDED STAY.
VISA REQUIRED, EXCEPT FOR A MAX. STAY OF 90 DAYS(SEE NOTE
56075):
- FOR HOLDERS OF PASSPORTS ISSUED TO NATIONALS OF USA;
NOTE 56075: THE MAX. STAY IS GRANTED WITHIN 180 DAYS.
MINORS:
- >TIDFT/BE/PA/MI/ID1150
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:
- VALID VISAS IN TRAVEL DOCUMENT THAT ARE FULL AND
>MDTI
>MD
INVALIDATED, ARE ACCEPTED WHEN ACCOMPANIED BY A NEW TRAVEL
DOCUMENT.
- VISITORS ARE REQUIRED TO HOLD PROOF OF SUFFICIENT FUNDS TO
COVER THEIR STAY AND DOCUMENTS REQUIRED FOR THEIR NEXT
DESTINATION .
WARNING:
- PASSPORTS AND/OR PASSPORT REPLACING DOCUMENTS ISSUED MORE
THAN 10 YEARS PRIOR TO DATE OF TRAVEL ARE NOT ACCEPTED.
- VISITORS NOT HOLDING RETURN/ONWARD TICKETS COULD BE REFUSED
ENTRY .
>MDTI
>MD
VISA DESTINATION RUSSIAN FED. (RU)
...... NORMAL PASSPORTS ONLY ......
PASSPORT REQUIRED.
- PASSPORTS AND OTHER DOCUMENTS ACCEPTED FOR ENTRY MUST BE
VALID ON ARRIVAL.
VISA REQUIRED.
>MDTI
>MD
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:
- VISITORS ARE REQUIRED TO HOLD DOCUMENTS REQUIRED FOR THEIR
NEXT DESTINATION. (SEE NOTE 43399)
NOTE 43399: EXEMPT ARE HOLDERS OF A VALID VISA.
- VISITORS ARE STRONGLY RECOMMENDED TO HOLD A HEALTH/TRAVEL
INSURANCE TO COVER FOR ANY MEDICAL EXPENSES.
WARNING:
- VISITORS NOT HOLDING RETURN/ONWARD TICKETS COULD BE REFUSED
ENTRY. (SEE NOTE 43399)
NOTE 43399: EXEMPT ARE HOLDERS OF A VALID VISA.
>MDTI
>MD
SIMPLIFY YOUR REQUEST USE TIFA, TIFV AND TIFH
FULL TEXT AVAILABLE USE TIDFT
CHECK >TINEWS/N1 - SIMPLIFICATION OF TIMATIC
SCAN COMPLETE
>
>
Code:
>TIRV/NAUS/EMWAS/DEMOW/TRBRU
TIMATIC-3 / 16OCT15 / 1337 UTC
NATIONAL USA (US) /EMBARKATION USA (US)
TRANSIT BELGIUM (BE) /DESTINATION RUSSIAN FED. (RU)
ALSO CHECK DESTINATION INFORMATION BELOW
VISA TRANSIT BELGIUM (BE)
...... NORMAL PASSPORTS ONLY ......
VISA NOT REQUIRED.
>MDTI
>MD
VISA DESTINATION RUSSIAN FED. (RU)
...... NORMAL PASSPORTS ONLY ......
PASSPORT REQUIRED.
- PASSPORTS AND OTHER DOCUMENTS ACCEPTED FOR ENTRY MUST BE
VALID ON ARRIVAL.
VISA REQUIRED.
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:
>MDTI
>MD
- VISITORS ARE REQUIRED TO HOLD DOCUMENTS REQUIRED FOR THEIR
NEXT DESTINATION. (SEE NOTE 43399)
NOTE 43399: EXEMPT ARE HOLDERS OF A VALID VISA.
- VISITORS ARE STRONGLY RECOMMENDED TO HOLD A HEALTH/TRAVEL
INSURANCE TO COVER FOR ANY MEDICAL EXPENSES.
WARNING:
- VISITORS NOT HOLDING RETURN/ONWARD TICKETS COULD BE REFUSED
ENTRY. (SEE NOTE 43399)
NOTE 43399: EXEMPT ARE HOLDERS OF A VALID VISA.
>MDTI
Just fo kicks I just created a similar routing (IAD-BRU, one month break, BRU-DME, then back to JFK) in Amadeus and checked that reservation like an agent should:
Code:
1 SN 516 J 19OCT 1 IADBRU HK1 1750 0725+1 333 E 0 DB
SEE RTSVC
2 SN2835 J 17NOV 2 BRUDME HK1 1015 1545 319 E 0 S
SEE RTSVC
3 SU2168 J 21DEC 1 SVOBRU HK1 E 0940 1115 321 E 0 B
SEE RTSVC
4 SN 501 J 22DEC 2 BRUJFK HK1 1030 1320 333 E 0 LS
SEC FLT PSGR DATA IN PNR 72H BEFORE STD VIA INPUT SSR DOCS
SEE RTSVC
5 RM NOTIFY PASSENGER PRIOR TO TICKET PURCHASE & CHECK-IN:
FEDERAL LAWS FORBID THE CARRIAGE OF HAZARDOUS MATERIALS -
GGAMAUSHAZ/S1,4
>tirv/naus/s1-2
TIMATIC-3 / 16OCT15 / 1350 UTC
NATIONAL USA (US) /TRANSIT BELGIUM (BE)
DESTINATION RUSSIAN FED. (RU)
ALSO CHECK DESTINATION INFORMATION BELOW
VISA TRANSIT BELGIUM (BE)
...... NORMAL PASSPORTS ONLY ......
VISA NOT REQUIRED.
>MDTI
>m
VISA DESTINATION RUSSIAN FED. (RU)
...... NORMAL PASSPORTS ONLY ......
PASSPORT REQUIRED.
- PASSPORTS AND OTHER DOCUMENTS ACCEPTED FOR ENTRY MUST BE
VALID ON ARRIVAL.
VISA REQUIRED.
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:
>MDTI
>m
- VISITORS ARE REQUIRED TO HOLD DOCUMENTS REQUIRED FOR THEIR
NEXT DESTINATION. (SEE NOTE 43399)
NOTE 43399: EXEMPT ARE HOLDERS OF A VALID VISA.
- VISITORS ARE STRONGLY RECOMMENDED TO HOLD A HEALTH/TRAVEL
INSURANCE TO COVER FOR ANY MEDICAL EXPENSES.
WARNING:
- VISITORS NOT HOLDING RETURN/ONWARD TICKETS COULD BE REFUSED
ENTRY. (SEE NOTE 43399)
NOTE 43399: EXEMPT ARE HOLDERS OF A VALID VISA.
>MDTI
>m
SIMPLIFY YOUR REQUEST USE TIFA, TIFV AND TIFH
FULL TEXT AVAILABLE USE TIDFT
CHECK >TINEWS/N1 - SIMPLIFICATION OF TIMATIC
SCAN COMPLETE
>
>
Oct 16, 2015, 8:14 am
#53
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Obtaining a Russian visa is not a mere formality;
However, Russia consulates seem to apply different standards worldwide. While some are very strict, some (esp. in Finland) are somewhat more accomodating. If you then add a competent and "connected" visa agency to the table, it should be quite easy. It worked for me twice for a Russian Visa, applied at the Russian embassy in Helsinki (I am not a Finnish citizen).
Now, if transit in BRU is entered they see this:
So once an agents reads what the system is telling him/her, he will insist on seeing a visa before letting you board.Common sense may tell them something else, but that is what they are trained to do.
VISITORS ARE REQUIRED TO HOLD PROOF OF SUFFICIENT FUNDS TO
COVER THEIR STAY AND DOCUMENTS REQUIRED FOR THEIR NEXT
DESTINATION
COVER THEIR STAY AND DOCUMENTS REQUIRED FOR THEIR NEXT
DESTINATION
Oct 16, 2015, 8:21 am
#54
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Visa applications can be rejected. Proof of application does not mean that the required document is forthcoming.
It's sort of like saying "here's my application to Harvard; now, give me the student discount".
Oct 16, 2015, 8:24 am
#55
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Visa applications can be rejected.
A foreigner can also be rejected to enter Russia, after having obtained a valid visa.
The foreigner will be deported.
In my eyes, the immigration officer in BRU should be the person decide, what exact documents he wants to see, if the foreigners aroses his suspicion.
However, it is not for the airline to decide that.
Oct 16, 2015, 8:37 am
#56
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I do understand the point, however, the airline cannot defend themselves by quoting TIMATIC. And again, I make the same point as NickB. The airline would not have been fined by Belgium, because there is no explicit onward ticket requirement.
[...]
Well, a document does not have to be a ticket. A mere printed out online Visa application confirmation with a visa agency would suffice.
[...]
Well, a document does not have to be a ticket. A mere printed out online Visa application confirmation with a visa agency would suffice.
Like this story where US/AA didn't allow a US citizen to fly to Greece with a tattered passport: http://www.flyertalk.com/articles/br...-passport.html
Last edited by oliver2002; Oct 16, 2015 at 8:42 am
Oct 16, 2015, 9:00 am
#57
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Not to hijack this thread, but this thread is very pertinent to my situation.
I would like to book a special "I am Turning 50" reward flight so that I may experience international F class before it becomes unavailable forever to mere point collectors like me.
This is all on one ticket. No stopovers. No checked luggage. I am a Canadian citizen holding a valid passport.
YUL-MUC on LH in F (3 hour layover)-BOM on LH in F (3 hour layover)-BKK in J in AI.
I am sure that the checkin agent in YUL will not say anything about an Indian transit visa and that I will receive my boarding passes for all onward connections. A visa is not required for Thailand. I have read about INTL-INTL connection in BOM and it seems that I will have no difficulty on the ground in BOM making the connection bypassing Indian customs and immigration (though admittedly I am not sure about this).
But I am concerned the gate agent in MUC will ask for at least a transit visa before he/she will board me to BOM. I am pretty sure that is what happened the last time I travelled on LH to India, albeit under different circumstances. Obtaining a transit visa is impractical since LH only releases these F seats 10-14 days in advance and it would take longer than that to obtain a transit visa. I could of course obtain a regular visa in advance but that has its own set of impracticalities.
Is the above routing through India safe to book without a transit visa? Any thoughts would be appreciated from my FlyerTalk friends.
I would like to book a special "I am Turning 50" reward flight so that I may experience international F class before it becomes unavailable forever to mere point collectors like me.
This is all on one ticket. No stopovers. No checked luggage. I am a Canadian citizen holding a valid passport.
YUL-MUC on LH in F (3 hour layover)-BOM on LH in F (3 hour layover)-BKK in J in AI.
I am sure that the checkin agent in YUL will not say anything about an Indian transit visa and that I will receive my boarding passes for all onward connections. A visa is not required for Thailand. I have read about INTL-INTL connection in BOM and it seems that I will have no difficulty on the ground in BOM making the connection bypassing Indian customs and immigration (though admittedly I am not sure about this).
But I am concerned the gate agent in MUC will ask for at least a transit visa before he/she will board me to BOM. I am pretty sure that is what happened the last time I travelled on LH to India, albeit under different circumstances. Obtaining a transit visa is impractical since LH only releases these F seats 10-14 days in advance and it would take longer than that to obtain a transit visa. I could of course obtain a regular visa in advance but that has its own set of impracticalities.
Is the above routing through India safe to book without a transit visa? Any thoughts would be appreciated from my FlyerTalk friends.
Oct 16, 2015, 1:14 pm
#58
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Yes, no transit visa required for BOM, just after deplaning you report at a transit desk and go into the intl departure concourse.
Oct 16, 2015, 2:36 pm
#59
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Well TIMATIC is wrong in this case and IDB is due - I have no doubt at all that a court would rule that this was IDB as the Visa was not a requirement to get to BRU!
Oct 16, 2015, 5:58 pm
#60
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It does not matter whether Russia hands out visas on the streets of Brussels to all comers. What matters is that appropriate Belgian authorities have advised IATA (the compiler of TIMATIC) that their sovereign nation requires proper documentation for the onward journey (as cited at least five times in this thread alone).
OP could not demonstrate that he had the visa he required to enter Russia and the SN agent accordingly denied him boarding.
Whether Belgium routinely enforces the requirement and whether SN would have been fined is not relevant. The entire system is designed with binary rules so that international commercial aviation can function.
OP is SOL.