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Denied boarding first flight by SN, due to lack of visa for connecting flight

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Denied boarding first flight by SN, due to lack of visa for connecting flight

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Old Oct 15, 2015, 2:40 pm
  #31  
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Non-residents must have a ticket from Schengen country to another destination and valid documents. Check TIMATIC!
no ticket is required, just plausible proof on how the passenger intends to leave the Schengen zone in time.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/lufth...-flight-2.html

Last edited by warakorn; Oct 15, 2015 at 4:22 pm
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Old Oct 15, 2015, 3:27 pm
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
Since the OP was flying on SN one could easily assume that the flight was US to Belgium.....
OP did not initially identify the carrier or stopover location. Those were added by a Moderator (myself) for clarify based on the duplicate posted thread.

And since a thread was posted in UA forum without the above information, some assumed UA was the carrier.
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Old Oct 15, 2015, 3:48 pm
  #33  
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I was not aware that this thread originated in the UA forum.
Being located in the LH forum, I would have assumed we are talking about SN.

Moreover, I stand corrected. There is a Schengen border codex, which actually requires some proof to make plausible how the US citizen intends to leave the EU in time.
A simple refundable ferry ticket Hoek, Belgium to Harwich, UK would have been enough.

Last edited by warakorn; Oct 15, 2015 at 4:05 pm
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Old Oct 15, 2015, 4:17 pm
  #34  
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Here is the definite answer.
I have just checked the Schengen border code:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...lex:32006R0562



Two parts are of particular interest:


Article 5

Entry conditions for third-country nationals


1. For stays not exceeding three months per six-month period, the entry conditions for third-country nationals shall be the following:
(a)
they are in possession of a valid travel document or documents authorising them to cross the border;
(b)
they are in possession of a valid visa, if required pursuant to Council Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 of 15 March 2001 listing the third countries whose nationals must be in possession of visas when crossing the external borders and those whose nationals are exempt from that requirement (17), except where they hold a valid residence permit;
(c)
they justify the purpose and conditions of the intended stay, and they have sufficient means of subsistence, both for the duration of the intended stay and for the return to their country of originor transit to a third country into which they are certain to be admitted, or are in a position to acquire such means lawfully;
(d)
they are not persons for whom an alert has been issued in the SIS for the purposes of refusing entry;
(e)
they are not considered to be a threat to public policy, internal security, public health or the international relations of any of the Member States, in particular where no alert has been issued in Member States' national data bases for the purposes of refusing entry on the same grounds.
2. A non-exhaustive list of supporting documents which the border guard may request from the third-country national in order to verify the fulfilment of the conditions set out in paragraph 1, point c, is included in Annex I.

[..]

ANNEX I

Supporting documents to verify the fulfilment of entry conditions


The documentary evidence referred to in Article 5(2) may include the following:
(a)
for business trips:
(i)
an invitation from a firm or an authority to attend meetings, conferences or events connected with trade, industry or work;
(ii)
other documents which show the existence of trade relations or relations for work purposes;
(iii)
entry tickets for fairs and congresses if attending one;
(b)
for journeys undertaken for the purposes of study or other types of training:
(i)
a certificate of enrolment at a teaching institute for the purposes of attending vocational or theoretical courses in the framework of basic and further training;
(ii)
student cards or certificates for the courses attended;
(c)
for journeys undertaken for the purposes of tourism or for private reasons:

(i)
supporting documents as regards lodging:

an invitation from the host if staying with one,

a supporting document from the establishment providing lodging or any other appropriate document indicating the accommodation envisaged;
(ii)
supporting documents as regards the itinerary:
confirmation of the booking of an organised trip or any other appropriate document indicating the envisaged travel plans;
(iii)
supporting documents as regards return:
a return or round-trip ticket.
My take from it:
There is no strict requirement of having an onward ticket.
1) Third-country national would have to proof to a border guard that he is in a position to acquire such a Russian visa lawfully.
2) An onward ticket is mentioned, however, the border code states it is a non-exhaustive list.

Its no comparison to the US entry requirement for VWP visitors. They would have to have a return or onward flight ticket leaving the North American continent within 90 days after entry.
There is no such requirement for Schengen. A Schengen border guard may deny entry if he feels the story of the third-party national is not plausible at all.

Last edited by warakorn; Oct 15, 2015 at 4:24 pm
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Old Oct 15, 2015, 5:18 pm
  #35  
 
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I am not sure if it still applies, but at one stage one could get Russian visa only and only in the country that issued the passport, i.e. Russian visa for US passport could be issued only by Russian embassy in USA. Had exactly that problem myself.
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Old Oct 15, 2015, 11:22 pm
  #36  
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Originally Posted by warakorn
I was not aware that this thread originated in the UA forum.
Being located in the LH forum, I would have assumed we are talking about SN.
It was moved

Moreover, I stand corrected. There is a Schengen border codex, which actually requires some proof to make plausible how the US citizen intends to leave the EU in time.
A simple refundable ferry ticket Hoek, Belgium to Harwich, UK would have been enough.
Upon entry to Europe, whether EU/Schengen (i.e. Spain), EU/non-Schengen (i.e. UK) or non-EU/Schengen (i.e. Switzerland), I've shown my American passport and been allowed in. In Spain, he didn't even look at anything. In all cases, never been asked for proof of finance, onward ticket, etc.

Originally Posted by vbroucek
I am not sure if it still applies, but at one stage one could get Russian visa only and only in the country that issued the passport, i.e. Russian visa for US passport could be issued only by Russian embassy in USA. Had exactly that problem myself.
Virtually all my friends who have an American passport only while living in Israel who wanted to visit Russia had no problem getting a Russian visa in the Tel Aviv embassy.
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Old Oct 16, 2015, 1:11 am
  #37  
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This reminds me of the glory days when people booked bmi and US Air award(s) from Europe to KHV/UUS via ICN in F for a regional F award and didn't get visa for Russia
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Old Oct 16, 2015, 2:46 am
  #38  
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OP had a return ticket Schengen to the US so the whole onward trip to Russia would not matter to Schengen at all!
It was therefore a definite IDB!
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Old Oct 16, 2015, 2:47 am
  #39  
 
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A document/SN-related experience from my side:

I used to frequent SN flights to one of the African countries that have quite strict visa regulations (in general no visa on-entry, with a small exception of a special type of invitation letter). My itinerary started in WAW onboard LO to BRU, change to SN and onwards to final destination (all on one PNR). What used to amaze me, was how thorough was the LO agent at luggage check-in (probably because it was not a very popular destination + I had the invitation letter not a regular visa) - I had to spend around 10 mins every time, waiting for him to call a supervisor and confirm that I actually can carry on. What's even better, nobody cared about the visa when boarding in Brussels (and when I had carry-on luggage only actually nobody checked the visa at all).

Airlines can be quite thorough with the visa-check since AFAIK if they let through a pax without proper documents and pax gets turned back at the final destination's immigration they have to bring him back at their own (airline) expense. On the other hand my experience says that those checks can be flawed and in some circumstances one could proceed without being checked at all.

As to the OP's problem - it seems that still no clarification has been given in regard to the PNR details. It was mentioned here before - there needs to be a plausible scenario when OP actually gets the required visa (ie. a stop-over vs. checking in to the final destination). Method of getting it (in Europe / flying back to US on another itinerary / having someone handing over the necessary docs in BRU) - shouldn't be airline's concern.
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Old Oct 16, 2015, 2:57 am
  #40  
 
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Originally Posted by Germanfflyer
OP had a return ticket Schengen to the US so the whole onward trip to Russia would not matter to Schengen at all!
It was therefore a definite IDB!
You're wrong on OP having US-Schengen-US ticket.

He had US-Schengen-Russia-Schengen-US ticket apparently. Which means he had to get a Russian Visa in time, which was his plan. And even IF Russia would only give Russians visas to US-Americans in their country (Washington embassy) it wouldn't matter. OP could arrive in BRU, then have a separate ticket back to the US, to have the Visa done, then return to Europe and fly BRU-Russia-BRU with it. Not SN's concern. Not even if he hadn't booked such ticket before.

As long as there was a reasonable* amount of time, it's definitely IDB and SN is to bear the damage done to OP.

*Reasonable time is probably difficult to exactly define, but one could say that "a few hours"** is below and "one week or more" is above.

**unless he could prove he had a second passport ready to pickup in BRU with a Russian Visa in it, for example.. then common sense would suggest to still have him board.

As OP had 4 weeks in BRU as a stopover, it's obviously more than enough time.

I'd definitely go for what warakorn suggested a few posts earlier: 600€ due to IDB plus either full refund or change of dates. And if SN doesn't comply, sue them for more damages done.
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Old Oct 16, 2015, 3:46 am
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Germanfflyer
OP had a return ticket Schengen to the US so the whole onward trip to Russia would not matter to Schengen at all!
It was therefore a definite IDB!
How do you know? OP could have had US-Schengen-Russia-US ticket, with no return to Schengen. In such a scenario, they Europe-Russia leg does actually matter (though I still don't see why SN would care about travel plans a month away)
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Old Oct 16, 2015, 4:18 am
  #42  
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Originally Posted by lixiaojuventus
Another question is that, how is OP able to obtain a Russia visa while traveling as a tourist in Europe?
Exactly.

Assuming the OP's visa application was rejected (for whatever reason), the OP would then be "stranded" away from home, and mid-ticket. It is rather strange that one would delay applying for a visa when it can be obtained well in advance of the desired dates of travel.

With no evidence of being able to compete the journey ticketed, I think that the airline did the only thing it could - prevent any travel on the ticket.

Did the OP have any good/valid reason for NOT applying for a Russian visa in good time, and from his/her usual place of residence?
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Old Oct 16, 2015, 4:21 am
  #43  
 
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Originally Posted by irishguy28
Exactly.

Assuming the OP's visa application was rejected (for whatever reason), the OP would then be "stranded" away from home, and mid-ticket. It is rather strange that one would delay applying for a visa when it can be obtained well in advance of the desired dates of travel.

With no evidence of being able to compete the journey ticketed, I think that the airline did the only thing it could - prevent any travel on the ticket.
I'm fairly certain OP does own a credit card with a limit high enough to buy a one-way flight back to the US in such case.

Also, there are plenty of reasons for applying for a Visa shorter to the time of destination.

For Chinese visas, for examply, validity is 3 months on the date it is produced.

Assuming that you want to stay in China for 1 month, you should only apply for one less than 2 months in advance. And there are more extreme cases like this..
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Old Oct 16, 2015, 4:23 am
  #44  
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Originally Posted by YuropFlyer
I'm fairly certain OP does own a credit card with a limit high enough to buy a one-way flight back to the US in such case.
But that would be throwing good money after bad.

Perhaps the OP should have asked to have the ticket changed to just US-BRU-US and use that credit card to arrange onward travel from BRU once the visa had been obtained.
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Old Oct 16, 2015, 4:55 am
  #45  
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Originally Posted by warakorn
I am 200% sure that an UK citizen is not required to have an onward ticket, when entering Belgium. UK and Belgium are part of the EU and there is a freedom of movement clause in place for EU citizens. An UK citizen can always move and establish permanent residency in Belgium - without any visa or prior approval.
UK citizen and UK resident is not the same thing, though. Being a third-country national residing in the UK does not exempt you from Schengen immigration rules (unless you have intra-EU movement rights due to being a family member of an EU citizen).

That changes the story a bit. However, I am pretty sure that US citizen do not have to own an onward ticket for stays up to 90 days in the EU.
They do. Or rather, the immigration officer may ask for such a document for the purpose of establishing the purpose of the journey as well as establishing that the traveler has resources to return. Thus, while it is not stated expressly that you must in all cases have that documentation, you could well be refused entry if the immigration officer considers that your inability to show this raises suspicion as to either the purpose of your visit or your ability to return/continue your journey.


Here is my take on it (in case SN was the culprit):
1) Airline was wrong.
2) SN owes the passenger EUR 600 denied boarding compensation. (EC261/2004)
3) Passenger can decide whether to claim a full refund or a free rebooking to another date (EC261/2004).
4) A DOT complaint could be filed once the passenger obtains the information that no onward ticket is needed to enter Belgium for up to 90 days.
5) If the airline acts in bad faith (denying a free rebooking to another date), the passenger may claim consequential damages, as well.
I do not think that it is quite as black and white as this. For all we know, SN might have called the immigration authorities in Brussels and be told not to accept the passenger. It may also be the case that they have had passengers returned in the past in similar situations.
I think that, for the OP, it is worth investigating more but I do not think that we can on this board come to a firm conclusion either way.
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