Fendant

Suggest we get back to the topic. In today's press release LH annopunces that they will severely cut the number of routes operated in a 3 class configuration. ( they also mull the introduction of a economy plus ).

Few weeks ago they announced that you will only be able to get to HONdom if you fly First or Full Fare Biz.

Does this new anouncement now imply that they will phase out HON almost completely?

a) If your regular city pairs will no longer have F, how can you make your 300k miles ? Does LH really think that you voluntarily pay more for the same C-class seat as your seat neighbour in order to get the HON miles ?

b) If your regular city pairs will be with F class, lowly mortals will no longer in a position to use their vouchers. Inevitably anybody who by accident has to book J fares will try to use his otherwise useless vouchers for upgrade into F.
=> This voucher perk becomes completely useless. Its like selling a season pass for a ski arena in Switzerland and offer a combination with free entry into the skiing hall in Dubai

I think there is more behind the recent "enhancements" than meets the eye. I lost completely trust in LH and M&M management, it becomes clear that their intention is to pull us over the table.

eponymous_coward

The only way this makes any sense is to sell F at a very modest premium to C (or aggressively oversell C and do op-ups), and try to stuff their F cabins full. Otherwise, they're going to be flying a lot of empty seats around that nobody can upgrade into or get awards on. If you're not going to allow aspirational awards or loyalty upgrades, then you had better sell what you have.

I think taking F out of part of the fleet fixes some of that, but there has to be more.

Crampedin13A

If LH is going to go the route of no F cabin like a lot of other airlines then they might want to re-design that joke of a new C cabin. Something along the lines of LX or NZ biz cabins would be more like it.

kai.lileboo

Hi all,

I just received the reply on my previous mails to M&M regarding the errors on the web page..and the milage accural of Z and P booking classes from 1st Sept. 2012.

I copy the mail bellow:
Agradecemos su e-mail y sus comentarios.

Cuando hace la reserva de sus vuelos en la página de Lufthansa y selecciona la tarifa deseada, al hacer click en la información hay un link "Calculadora de millas" que le lleva a la página de Miles & More al apartado Acumular millas > Vuelos donde se indica que para vuelos con Lufthansa en todo el mundo (Vuelos de / a / entre destinos fuera de Europa) con las clase de reserva E, K, L, T se acumula un mínimo de 500 millas o el 50% de la distancia en millas.

Así mismo, se indica que con la clase Z, en vuelos a partir del 1 de septiembre de 2012 obtendrá un 150% de las millas de distancia o un mínimo de 750 millas. Está por tanto ya informado si compra ahora su billete de las millas que recibirá si la reserva es en la clase indicada.

Lamentamos que se sienta decepcionado con los cambios que va a haber en el programa a partir del 01 de septiembre de 2012. Por supuesto que hemos transferido este malestar y sus comentarios al respecto al departamento correspondiente.

Saludos cordiales,
Su Service Team de Miles & More

www.miles-and-more.com

Sitz der Gesellschaft/Corporate Headquarters:
Deutsche Lufthansa Aktiengesellschaft, Köln
Registereintragung/Registration:
Amtsgericht Köln HR B 2168

The translation is:

They indicate how to check the miles for booking classes.... (as I was new on therir web page????)
Then they explain that the miles in Z class are credited 150% after the date indicated, so if I buy a ticket now, even if the www.meilenrechner.de says 200%, I am well informed that the milles will be credited 150% after 01 sept. 2012.
And they are sorry to learn I am disappointed.
Wele, I am sorry too,

N1003U

Wow, I have been away for a few weeks and it was quite an effort to make my way through this thread. Emotions seem to be running higher than normal on this one...

However, I took the time to read through to see the thinking of others as the proposed M&M changes seem to have a major impact on me.

I am New York based and fly transatlantic for business about 6-7 times per year, mostly in Z, mostly JFK/FRA or EWR/DUS (I can usually plan my travel far enough ahead to take advantage of discounted C-class), plus 3-4 times per year privately, either in Y (S/V), or in Z if it is a very good deal.

The quotes below speak most strongly to my situation.

I am one of those "Z (and now P) leisure/corporate travellers..."

In my case, under the coming changes, LH is removing the key feature of the M&M program that attracted me in the first place (I came over from UA MileagePlus a few years ago when it occured to me that I was flying LH 90+% of the time with *A anyway so I looked into what M&M had to offer), namely 200% earning on Z fares.

The 200% allows me to comfortably reach SEN every year. At 150% it is close whether or not I reach SEN.

However, if Z-fares come down a bit, then it is possible I will make up the difference by buying more Z-fares for private travel.

If I find it becomes too hard to maintain *G on LH under my current travel patterns, then going back to UA seems a rational choice. With UA I earn *G at 50k miles, and I can also give some of my Transatlantic business to SkyTeam (which I usually fly inside the US and to Pacific destinations anyway) to raise my status level with SkyTeam.

As long as UA keeps the Welcome Lounge agreement in FRA, what do I lose by going back to United (assuming there are no changes in Z pricing after the changes take effect)?

From NYC I have many options. To the German-speaking world, I find LH Group is often the best value (though my trip last month was on a Schnäppchen to FRA with SQ, €1.450 return).

However, when an airline too-often manipulates its frequent-flyer program (which to my way of thinking, an FFP is a small discount [buy x, get one free] and a few service incentives, in return for frequent business), then what they are doing is moving me from a comfortable status-quo (where I by default buy LH unless the price difference is too great to ignore) to a place where I re-evalutate more often who offers the best price/service for my needs.

I am not sure it is a good idea to make frequent customers uncomfortable, but then I am not paid to make those decisions.

kasi

So, Y eliminated for HON Miles, C will be eliminated in Europe/Germany (after transferring Ops to Germanwings), F will be eliminated on several routes, Z and P will earn much less miles at prices previously earned on D and are often the only business-booking classes on Lufthansa .com. how many HON will be left? 500?

Rambuster

It sure looks like they want to eliminate the HON program slice by slice so that they can cancel it in the next round?

N1003U

499. My (HON) partner just went over to One World...

N1003U

Or should I say my (HON) partner who used to go out of her way to fly from NYC to Asia via FRA on LH on mostly Z fares...

NewbieRunner

Did she actually fly all the way from NYC to Asia via FRA in LH C? Or did she have enough eVouchers and SWUs?

N1003U

Yes paid LH C. She travelled to Asia almost monthly in 2009 and 2010, and at least quarterly since then.

Non-stops from NYC to PEK and PVG are surprisingly limited (and tend to be more expensive), and as long as you are making a stop, believe it or not, via FRA is not a lot worse than via, say YYZ or ICN, especially if you have someplace nice like the FCT to hang out between when LH405 lands and the China flights depart. With some flexibility in dates and a little advanced planning, the LH Z-fares are reasonably competitive. She is also a German national and can schedule stopovers to visit family.

However, if Z-class will only earn 150%, that reduces mileage earning on a US to Asia return trip from ~40k to ~30k, and it will be very hard to maintain HON. Add the fact that she prefers AA domestically in the US, she has had a couple of very good experiences with CX, and she has a new customer in London, and you have the makings of a defection to One World. On an annual basis, her defection represents a spend of €60k - €85k (plus more now for trips to London) that just left LH and is now going to CX/BA/AA. I wonder how many times something similar has to happen before LH notices. If the goal is fewer HONs, then at least in my anecdotal example, the changes are already working to eliminate a "marginal" HON. I wonder why LH would want such a customer to go away, though...

I am a cheapskate and usually fly OZ or KE to China via ICN, since they are almost always the low fare provider, and I also maintain status on SkyTeam, due to my US destinations that work well with DL.

I use LH because they are very competitive over the Atlantic, many of my projects are in Germany, FRA is a convenient gateway for me, and unlike apparently some folks in this forum, I actually like LH on-board service, and I can sleep in the old C seats. But I fly almost exclusively on Z-fares if I can help it, so if I ever had a chance to make HON, this enhancement killed it. Plus now I have to buy-up in order to upgrade to F, which if I am objective is not a huge deal, but right now I am feeing emotional...

DownUnderFlyer

Unless money doesn't matter or you never actually attempt to upgrade it is kind of a big deal. Now getting 150% miles and not being able to upgrade on fares which are higher than they were in the past is a big deal for me.

N1003U

If I look at my personal travel patterns objectively, I very rarely upgrade C to F. I am much more likely to use my eVouchers to upgrade from Y to C on private travel (my travel policy allows for this), and if I want to fly F, I buy on the occasional "super-discount" deals, or I use miles to buy an O ticket.

Of course for others it may be different, and if you often upgrade often (especially with eVouchers) from C to F, or your company is like mine and you travel almost exclusively on paid Z fares, this is enhancement is a very bad thing.

If, as suggested by others, Z fares do not drop some after this enhancement, I will interpret the changes as an invitation to consider alternatives for my travel needs (and perhaps helping to make the SEN experience more "exclusive" for others ).

From New York, I have MANY options to fly nonstop to FRA and MUC (and even one or two to STR and HAM), but I prefer LH. I understand the thinking to align benefits with price paid, but I am not sure in this case that LH has completely thought about (LH, what are you "sinking" about ) the dynamics these changes will bring. Any nonlinear analysts, game theorists, of economics professors want to weigh in on this?

TRAVELSIG

Well said.

I even took a DL flight- granted no HON circle lounge- however- the flight was nonstop and direct from VCE- it was 700 EUR cheaper in business than LH. The seat was full lie flat- definitely a step below F however a step up from the C on LH (but not LX).

Rambuster

Liberating, isn't it!