New First class retrofit info
Oct 5, 2010, 12:41 pm
#136
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Having a F product on some birds and no F on others makes no sense. Remember the old days with the 2-class A346, when you could not rebook a F ticket from FRA-SFO to MUC-SFO for example. Well you could, but they gave you just the "lines of horror" instead of a F product.
Oct 5, 2010, 12:50 pm
#137
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Actually, it makes quite a lot of sense, if your F cabin in certain places is mostly being used for overselling C and then comp upgrading Senators and Hons, or giving the seats to NRSA or US DM Maximizers(tm), but you can still sell C (and fill a C cabin with almost all paid fares) quite profitably. Especially if soon you'll have a true-lie flat C product, and that would be part of the two-class conversion.
Oct 5, 2010, 2:01 pm
#138
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flying around several vastly different products isn't an option either, from a customers point of view. if they don't want to spend the money on the 744s, fine but then why update the cabin at all when all it takes is maybe new bedding and a mattress!? doesn't take any time, costs the least amount of money and has an instant effect...
And now I won't benefit from reducing the number of C seat as that really drags down my op-up chances which currently are quite high in the 747 :-)
And btw, I really don't mind two different F products for a while - while the A380 product really is much much better than the old seat I don't think it's that bad - at least not for upgraders like me..
And btw, I really don't mind two different F products for a while - while the A380 product really is much much better than the old seat I don't think it's that bad - at least not for upgraders like me..
Correct. And they still do not learn from prior mistakes. 
Having a F product on some birds and no F on others makes no sense. Remember the old days with the 2-class A346, when you could not rebook a F ticket from FRA-SFO to MUC-SFO for example. Well you could, but they gave you just the "lines of horror" instead of a F product. 
Without a real flat business class (including a stabile table rather than a shaking stupid thing) on the entire fleet they should better keep a F product available or they will loose business. Fortunately most of my destinations are served by LX as well. ^
Having a F product on some birds and no F on others makes no sense. Remember the old days with the 2-class A346, when you could not rebook a F ticket from FRA-SFO to MUC-SFO for example. Well you could, but they gave you just the "lines of horror" instead of a F product. Without a real flat business class (including a stabile table rather than a shaking stupid thing) on the entire fleet they should better keep a F product available or they will loose business. Fortunately most of my destinations are served by LX as well. ^
Are you sure? If you are a LH staff member then you should have a look around at the latest stuff. From what I'm seeing, there's 11 744s scheduled for a F/cl Upgrade and I've not heard of the plan that you're talking of although maybe the word hasn't blown my way yet. Anyway, regarding the 11x744s that I can see, the majority are V-series planes whilst only 1 T-series is listed for the upgrade.
10 B747 werden in 2011 mit neuer F/Cl ausgerüstet, genauer Umrüstungszeitpunkt noch offen. Für 13 weitere B747 genauso wie für A346 wird geprüft, ob Umrüstung in 2-Klassen-Version sinnvoll. Die 7 SCD-B747 werden definitiv nicht umgerüstet. A330 Neubestellungen werden ohne Quergang ausgeliefert, so wie das bei den meisten anderen Airlines schon status quo ist.
When all 20 B748i's were delivered (in a very short time span) B744 will most probably be used on medium-haul trunk routes such as TLV,CAI.....so not really a need for a top product .........still the aircraft is going to be in phase-out mode!
Last edited by LHPII; Oct 5, 2010 at 2:07 pm
Oct 6, 2010, 9:08 am
#139
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IM flying LH F on a MUC based A346 in August, 2011
do you think it will have the new F cabin by then?
do you think it will have the new F cabin by then?
Oct 6, 2010, 9:41 am
#140
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Oct 6, 2010, 9:55 am
#141
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Oct 6, 2010, 10:44 am
#142
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Golden Marketing Rule Number 1: Don't discount a luxury brand.
First Class is exclusive and access is limited to a priviledged few.
LH is putting everyone who can make it onboard into F - for free or tiny, tiny money. From awards with US Airways to SWUs in combination with cheapo Z fares to lots of free upgrades - how the hell do you make a product profitable that takes up twice the space of a business class seat if you are not able to fetch any margin over a sold C seat?
LH is totally ignorant to the fact that key elements that competition is offering are missing (privacy, bed, entertainment) and the cover up with improved ground services could only last for a few years. Time is up.
A little bit of money could have improved the experience a lot - and the only thing they did was "testing" whether they should offer olive oil with the bread offering: and they discontinued it after some time.
The whole F strategy sucks and LH is not getting this right. They like the compliments they get from all the upgraders and free First flyers too much and are missing the point that the product in the air is not making the money they need to make.
First Class is exclusive and access is limited to a priviledged few.
LH is putting everyone who can make it onboard into F - for free or tiny, tiny money. From awards with US Airways to SWUs in combination with cheapo Z fares to lots of free upgrades - how the hell do you make a product profitable that takes up twice the space of a business class seat if you are not able to fetch any margin over a sold C seat?
LH is totally ignorant to the fact that key elements that competition is offering are missing (privacy, bed, entertainment) and the cover up with improved ground services could only last for a few years. Time is up.
A little bit of money could have improved the experience a lot - and the only thing they did was "testing" whether they should offer olive oil with the bread offering: and they discontinued it after some time.
The whole F strategy sucks and LH is not getting this right. They like the compliments they get from all the upgraders and free First flyers too much and are missing the point that the product in the air is not making the money they need to make.
Oct 6, 2010, 11:08 am
#143
Join Date: Jul 2004
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This must be the reason why my FRA-HKG flight was 16/16 on the day of the flight, but on the day before was showing only 3/16?
And the service seems to be much slower with the full cabin, so people who are paying for F do pay some price for the upgrades. It took 3.5 hours for the dinner service!
And the service seems to be much slower with the full cabin, so people who are paying for F do pay some price for the upgrades. It took 3.5 hours for the dinner service!
Oct 6, 2010, 11:56 am
#144
Join Date: Mar 2008
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LH is putting everyone who can make it onboard into F - for free or tiny, tiny money. From awards with US Airways to SWUs in combination with cheapo Z fares to lots of free upgrades - how the hell do you make a product profitable that takes up twice the space of a business class seat if you are not able to fetch any margin over a sold C seat?
LH is the only one here thats has access to actuall revenue numbers - so it's only pure speculation done here on the money making.
Oct 6, 2010, 1:34 pm
#145
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I think LH knows quite well that the F cabin is an upgrade perk for their corporate C flyers. In that respect it is quite ok. Only the few full fare F pax are of course short changed. (I for one am not in favour of reducing f on the 747 from 16 to 8... Of course I am on those pesky Z fares!
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Oct 6, 2010, 2:35 pm
#146
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LH is putting everyone who can make it onboard into F - for free or tiny, tiny money. From awards with US Airways to SWUs in combination with cheapo Z fares to lots of free upgrades - how the hell do you make a product profitable that takes up twice the space of a business class seat if you are not able to fetch any margin over a sold C seat?
Let's compare and contrast LH and SQ, since they both fly some of the same metal...
A333:
SQ: 30 J/255 Y
LH: 8 F/48 C/165 Y
Even accounting for F, LH still has more J seats on the plane.
And as another comparison, here's DL, home of "we protect the sanctity of our J cabin from discounted fares, even if it means half the J cabin is NRSA" flying the same A 333 metal:
DL: 34 J/234 Y
OK, let's go to the B747:
SQ: 12 F/50 C/310 Y
LH: 16 F/80 C/234 Y
I'd bet, FWIW, that LH does get more money for a J or F redemption than a Y redemption from a *A partner... and the other thing to consider is that J sales are likely a lot juicier with profit margin than Y sales.
So even if LH is selling a lot of the F cabin at J prices, they can still make money at it if they fill most of it up, because they have quite a lot of it to sell. The fancy alcohol... well, there's a reason why restaurants stay in business, and it's largely because booze is much cheaper for overhead than food. So mild upgrades on the F food from J and somewhat nicer booze, a bit more space... and yes, LH can afford to have F for the DM Maximizers, SENs and HONs with comp upgrades or on holiday, and so on. They just need to do a good job selling C at a reasonable premium to Y, and given their history, I suspect they do.
Incidentally, it does appear LH is taking your words to heart on the A388, with 8 F (less than SQ)... but not completely, with 98 C (wow, that's a lot).
Oct 18, 2010, 3:23 pm
#147
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747 F renovation?
I read a while back on this thread LH was going to upgrade the F on the 747-400?
when is this happening? and by upgrade I mean sell only 8 seats and make something of a 'suite' out of the two you get - right?
when is this happening? and by upgrade I mean sell only 8 seats and make something of a 'suite' out of the two you get - right?
Oct 18, 2010, 3:31 pm
#148
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Oct 18, 2010, 4:02 pm
#149
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Your guess is as good as anyone else's!
A lot of us would like the answer to that question, but I'll dare to tell you not to hold your breath for anything in the near future!
A lot of us would like the answer to that question, but I'll dare to tell you not to hold your breath for anything in the near future!
Oct 18, 2010, 4:02 pm
#150
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Maybe F&F have complained about the lack of upgrade space?