Last edit by: FlyinHawaiian
HA's official web page on the lie flats
24 aircraft converted: N360HA, N361HA, N370HA, N373HA, N374HA, N375HA, N378HA, N379HA, N380HA, N381HA, N382HA, N383HA, N384HA, N385HA, N386HA, N388HA, N389HA, N390HA, N391HA, N392HA, N393HA, N395HA, N396HA, N399HA
24 aircraft converted: N360HA, N361HA, N370HA, N373HA, N374HA, N375HA, N378HA, N379HA, N380HA, N381HA, N382HA, N383HA, N384HA, N385HA, N386HA, N388HA, N389HA, N390HA, N391HA, N392HA, N393HA, N395HA, N396HA, N399HA
Consolidated "Hawaiian Airlines A330" thread
#556
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: HNL
Programs: DL PM/1MM, BW DE (lifetime), HH DE, Marriott PE (lifetime), National Emerald Executive
Posts: 7,217
Can't really speak to the seat build and I'm with you on the narrow part... BUT, for DOMESTIC flights to HI, these are probably the best seats going (particularly when combined with their superior soft product/service)
ESPECIALLY since HA specifically designed the seats to have aisle access via a "gangway" of sorts forward of the ottoman for the window seat pax while the 76" beds are in lie flat mode. One of the commenters on the TPG article mentioned the fact that the article didn't mention the way that HA has tried to attempt to provide aisle access by leaving this space between the footrest/ottoman and the seat in front for pax to scoot out without climbing over.
ESPECIALLY since HA specifically designed the seats to have aisle access via a "gangway" of sorts forward of the ottoman for the window seat pax while the 76" beds are in lie flat mode. One of the commenters on the TPG article mentioned the fact that the article didn't mention the way that HA has tried to attempt to provide aisle access by leaving this space between the footrest/ottoman and the seat in front for pax to scoot out without climbing over.
Still though, from US49 to HI, these seats are not nearly up to par with DL A330/767 1-2-1 (and all seats true aisle access) to HNL from MSP and ATL, or UA 767s (2-1-2 but still wider and better seats than HA) from IAD and EWR.
And I would assume that HA will have these seats go on routes such as PEK first (can command the most $$; look at what CA charges for PEK-HNL on its lie-flats) and then Japan, where it faces the stiffest competition from other true lie flats (CA from PEK and DL + JL on the Japan routes). Then after that likely to Australia, and then South Pacific (PPT PPG). At least, that's my speculation, if HA is to try to put these on the routes where it's losing (presumably) the most business to true lie flats..
To US49 I think HA plans to only send A330s to JFK, while replace the other routes now served by 767s or A330s with A320s - in the longer run. Sure doesn't make to send the new A330s to west coast, or even JFK (though then at least HA could compete with UA 767 lie-flat from EWR..).
Last edited by FlyinHawaiian; May 27, 2016 at 3:46 am Reason: image removal
#557
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Seattle
Programs: AS MVPG; Bonvoy Silver; OneWorld Sapphire; Miss Traveling for Work
Posts: 247
To US49 I think HA plans to only send A330s to JFK, while replace the other routes now served by 767s or A330s with A320s - in the longer run. Sure doesn't make to send the new A330s to west coast, or even JFK (though then at least HA could compete with UA 767 lie-flat from EWR..).
FYI, I'll withhold judgment until I'm finally get to fly one of these, but yes - that seat looks HARD! And, as someone said, yeah, it doesn't really compare to the international J that we're used to, but it might incent me to take a redeye back home instead of the afternoon flight from the West coast!
#558
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Sydney AUS
Programs: VA Gold, United Premier Gold, Qantas Platinum
Posts: 349
#559
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Boston, MA USA
Programs: TrueBlue/Hawaiian Miles
Posts: 349
Ah, thanks for the pics! ^ I recall that HA was talking about aisle-access from the windows, but I could never see where/how that was so... these pics finally show it. Thanks! It sure is narrow and still likely to bump into a taller passenger's feet and/or duvet at least, thus waking them up, but still is better than climbing over. So, that is good. Not true aisle access (nothing like the staggered lie-flats that so many airlines, like JL that HA is competing head on against, have), but still something nonetheless.
Still though, from US49 to HI, these seats are not nearly up to par with DL A330/767 1-2-1 (and all seats true aisle access) to HNL from MSP and ATL, or UA 767s (2-1-2 but still wider and better seats than HA) from IAD and EWR.
And I would assume that HA will have these seats go on routes such as PEK first (can command the most $$; look at what CA charges for PEK-HNL on its lie-flats) and then Japan, where it faces the stiffest competition from other true lie flats (CA from PEK and DL + JL on the Japan routes). Then after that likely to Australia, and then South Pacific (PPT PPG). At least, that's my speculation, if HA is to try to put these on the routes where it's losing (presumably) the most business to true lie flats..
To US49 I think HA plans to only send A330s to JFK, while replace the other routes now served by 767s or A330s with A320s - in the longer run. Sure doesn't make to send the new A330s to west coast, or even JFK (though then at least HA could compete with UA 767 lie-flat from EWR..).
Still though, from US49 to HI, these seats are not nearly up to par with DL A330/767 1-2-1 (and all seats true aisle access) to HNL from MSP and ATL, or UA 767s (2-1-2 but still wider and better seats than HA) from IAD and EWR.
And I would assume that HA will have these seats go on routes such as PEK first (can command the most $$; look at what CA charges for PEK-HNL on its lie-flats) and then Japan, where it faces the stiffest competition from other true lie flats (CA from PEK and DL + JL on the Japan routes). Then after that likely to Australia, and then South Pacific (PPT PPG). At least, that's my speculation, if HA is to try to put these on the routes where it's losing (presumably) the most business to true lie flats..
To US49 I think HA plans to only send A330s to JFK, while replace the other routes now served by 767s or A330s with A320s - in the longer run. Sure doesn't make to send the new A330s to west coast, or even JFK (though then at least HA could compete with UA 767 lie-flat from EWR..).
Again-I can't really say for Intl. as if I have a choice I'll fly an Intl carrier abroad BECAUSE their service and products from Y-F are generally far better!
BUT:
Comparing HA/UA competition top to bottom (ex East Coast/JFK)
Price:
-I haven't seen HA prices at the same or below UA's RT price ex NYC for a bunch of different dates I've searched, but I certainly hope they'll be competing fiercely!
Hard/Soft Product:
-The beds on HA are listed at 76" by 20.5" (via DesignAir) and the beds on UA are listed on Seatguru at 75" by 21" and on TPG's "state of biz class lie flat" post at 76" by 20" so it's pretty much apples to apples.
-if HA does a mattress pad or duvet/turndown service, they'll be ahead of UA as I have asked around here-and been told there isn't a topper or turndown.
-HA's service/soft product in F (and also Y/Y+) seems to be far better than UA's according to reviews, videos and threads I've spent quite a bit of time researching. My fav quote for UA EWR-HNL being "bring food even in F" (iirc-I've gotten some answers from you in those threads RealHJ-thanks again!)
-When on HA in F, you get an amenity kit AND lounge access. I know it might not be spectacular compared to SQ/EK et al. But when you book F EWR-HNL w UA, you get the "it's only domestic" treatment which means no lounge access and no amenity kits. Adding in the Hawaiian atmosphere and hospitality IMO really does make a BIG difference.
-HA's planes are newer (likely less MX knock wood)
-HA's 2-2-2 layout is no worse than the UA 777's w 2-2-2 BF flatbeds (which could wind up on EWR-HNL someday!) The layout in general could work well for couples AND biz travellers with couples by the windows and business folks in the centers. HA has at least tried to give aisle access to window seats. As for UA, Mrs. FBWFTW has already seen pics of our seats and asked how I would get to the lav on the 764. (and told me that she's NOT getting up!)
As to your point on the A321Neo's arriving in the next year or so:
-They could both increase A330 West Coast frequencies and/or ADD East Coast (obviously A330 only) destinations once A321Neo's arrive (I believe that BOS/PHL/DC area were tossed around)
-If HA remains branded as a "destination" or "boutique lesiure" carrier then their product is certainly light years ahead of a lot of carriers going West Coast (or PHX to the islands.
-They've said that they won't just dump A330's off West Coast routes-but perhaps change scheduling. For instance LAX has 3-4 daily A330's to HNL iirc. They wouldn't be doing that many flights with low load factors.
-LAX also has KOA/OGG/LIH 1x daily flights (perhaps some seasonal) which could easily be switched to/increased or otherwise supplemented with the A321's
-I think IF the A330-800 gets built (currently only 10 orders iirc w/ HA having 6 of the 10) you'll either see those go on the long distance routes only or open up further markets not within range to HNL now. I believe when Airbus made the intro/pitch to the A330Neo, John Leahy specifically said that "I hope Mark Dunkerley is listening because this plane can do London to Honolulu" which my avgeek brain translated to something like "Mark, buddy old pal, we're NOT going to be making the A350-800 you've already ordered but HAVE I GOT A PLANE FOR YOU!"
Last edited by FBWFTW; May 24, 2016 at 6:29 pm Reason: How could I forget the amenity kits!?
#561
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Sydney AUS
Programs: VA Gold, United Premier Gold, Qantas Platinum
Posts: 349
Interesting to see what this will do to the HNL-SYD run. Qantas is about to finish installing their Gen2 Skybeds on this route and now HA will have a similar product which they never even came close to before. Both have milked prices in J on this run in the past (with an inferior product) so this will be very interesting to watch. particuarly as I have saved up my HA miles to try it out!
#562
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Boston, MA USA
Programs: TrueBlue/Hawaiian Miles
Posts: 349
Thank you both. I always try to support the likes of HA/B6 and prior to merge VX-the airlines that buck the trend so to speak. I spend probably far too much time reading and researching this stuff but I suppose everyone has to have a hobby.
Still looking for that $5K or 200K HA mile loan to try the seats out so nobody else will have to suffer without a full report =p
Still looking for that $5K or 200K HA mile loan to try the seats out so nobody else will have to suffer without a full report =p
#564
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: HNL
Programs: DL PM/1MM, BW DE (lifetime), HH DE, Marriott PE (lifetime), National Emerald Executive
Posts: 7,217
At least, that's my personal opinion and observation.
-if HA does a mattress pad or duvet/turndown service, they'll be ahead of UA as I have asked around here-and been told there isn't a topper or turndown.
-HA's service/soft product in F (and also Y/Y+) seems to be far better than UA's according to reviews, videos and threads I've spent quite a bit of time researching. My fav quote for UA EWR-HNL being "bring food even in F" (iirc-I've gotten some answers from you in those threads RealHJ-thanks again!)
-HA's service/soft product in F (and also Y/Y+) seems to be far better than UA's according to reviews, videos and threads I've spent quite a bit of time researching. My fav quote for UA EWR-HNL being "bring food even in F" (iirc-I've gotten some answers from you in those threads RealHJ-thanks again!)
-HA's 2-2-2 layout is no worse than the UA 777's w 2-2-2 BF flatbeds (which could wind up on EWR-HNL someday!) The layout in general could work well for couples AND biz travellers with couples by the windows and business folks in the centers. HA has at least tried to give aisle access to window seats. As for UA, Mrs. FBWFTW has already seen pics of our seats and asked how I would get to the lav on the 764. (and told me that she's NOT getting up!)
-I think IF the A330-800 gets built (currently only 10 orders iirc w/ HA having 6 of the 10) you'll either see those go on the long distance routes only or open up further markets not within range to HNL now. I believe when Airbus made the intro/pitch to the A330Neo, John Leahy specifically said that "I hope Mark Dunkerley is listening because this plane can do London to Honolulu" which my avgeek brain translated to something like "Mark, buddy old pal, we're NOT going to be making the A350-800 you've already ordered but HAVE I GOT A PLANE FOR YOU!"
#565
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Boston, MA USA
Programs: TrueBlue/Hawaiian Miles
Posts: 349
Not really. The big downside - and to me it's a big downside indeed - of the HA seats is the ultra narrow foot and head sections. That will make for far less comfortable sleep, vs. UA which has more ergonomic and comfortable (more like a real single bed) rectangular seats. These HA seats seem even worse than the several generations old DL 777 seats, which also have a very narrow headrest, and I personally find uncomfortable and not conductive to sleep, as there's so little room for the head. These type of narrow-at-the-head seats have been proven to be uncomfortable and have been abandoned by most airlines several int'l J product generations ago...only to be picked up by HA.
At least, that's my personal opinion and observation.
I can't speak for HNL-EWR, but HNL-IAD UA service and food is good. Certainly better than DL on HNL-ATL and HNL-MSP. I would expect that it's the same as HNL-EWR. That being said, UA does seem to really stock a bare minimum of snacks, and they do run out of the chips and other such snacks that pax ask mid-flight, esp. for the return flight (IAD-HNL) that is day time and longer.
I cut out the quote about fuel prices et al. I think before they open up a bunch more/further intl routes, they'll both trim and boost certain routes. SEA is probably one for sure. LAX could likely go from three spaced out A330's to two A330's (an early and late) plus a middle of the day A321 or two dependent on the Pax loads.
I wasn't suggesting HNL-LHR as an actual route because I don't think the A338 can ACTUALLY do it but that was an Airbus selling point. All in all, they could wind up renewing their A330-200's into the same amount of A330-800's (again assuming it gets built) or even converting to A330-900's or GASP... Maybe even buying 788's or 789's (I think -9's would be the more likely if the situation EVER ACTUALLY got to that point)
Man would I love to get together with a bunch of you guys and talk airplanes and airlines sometime! Preferably somewhere on Waikiki Beach-while watching all the flights curl out of HNL over the Pacific with umbrella drinks in our hands!
#566
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: HNL
Programs: DL PM/1MM, BW DE (lifetime), HH DE, Marriott PE (lifetime), National Emerald Executive
Posts: 7,217
Not happy to hear that! Especially for the daytime flight to Hawaii where I'm the one peeking out the window every other state or so to see what's outside and take pics-gotta have snacks to keep my shutter thumb ready! I'm certainly HOPING to be fed well! I did ok on HA w the food in Y+ but I was still ready for dinner when I got to HNL.
Count me in!
#567
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,577
Ah, thanks for the pics! ^ I recall that HA was talking about aisle-access from the windows, but I could never see where/how that was so... these pics finally show it. Thanks! It sure is narrow and still likely to bump into a taller passenger's feet and/or duvet at least, thus waking them up, but still is better than climbing over. So, that is good. Not true aisle access (nothing like the staggered lie-flats that so many airlines, like JL that HA is competing head on against, have), but still something nonetheless.
Still though, from US49 to HI, these seats are not nearly up to par with DL A330/767 1-2-1 (and all seats true aisle access) to HNL from MSP and ATL, or UA 767s (2-1-2 but still wider and better seats than HA) from IAD and EWR.
And I would assume that HA will have these seats go on routes such as PEK first (can command the most $$; look at what CA charges for PEK-HNL on its lie-flats) and then Japan, where it faces the stiffest competition from other true lie flats (CA from PEK and DL + JL on the Japan routes). Then after that likely to Australia, and then South Pacific (PPT PPG). At least, that's my speculation, if HA is to try to put these on the routes where it's losing (presumably) the most business to true lie flats..
To US49 I think HA plans to only send A330s to JFK, while replace the other routes now served by 767s or A330s with A320s - in the longer run. Sure doesn't make to send the new A330s to west coast, or even JFK (though then at least HA could compete with UA 767 lie-flat from EWR..).
Still though, from US49 to HI, these seats are not nearly up to par with DL A330/767 1-2-1 (and all seats true aisle access) to HNL from MSP and ATL, or UA 767s (2-1-2 but still wider and better seats than HA) from IAD and EWR.
And I would assume that HA will have these seats go on routes such as PEK first (can command the most $$; look at what CA charges for PEK-HNL on its lie-flats) and then Japan, where it faces the stiffest competition from other true lie flats (CA from PEK and DL + JL on the Japan routes). Then after that likely to Australia, and then South Pacific (PPT PPG). At least, that's my speculation, if HA is to try to put these on the routes where it's losing (presumably) the most business to true lie flats..
To US49 I think HA plans to only send A330s to JFK, while replace the other routes now served by 767s or A330s with A320s - in the longer run. Sure doesn't make to send the new A330s to west coast, or even JFK (though then at least HA could compete with UA 767 lie-flat from EWR..).
There's no way that the 321neo's could replace the lift the 330s provide today. A few 330 flights may become 321neo, in an effort to provide more seats and frequency, for example splitting a destination that only sees 1 330s today, into 2 321's. The bulk of the 321s will be flown to the neighbor islands from the west coast. The 330 will very likely stay in cities like LAX, SEA, SFO, LAS, of course JFK, maybe even SAN and PDX. Where there's cargo, there will be a 330. HA's cargo business is bucking the trend of the industry and does quite well.
Yes, there is absolutely aisle access for ALL guests. You can throw in extra terms like "true" or "direct" if you want, but the point is that the window seat guest no longer has to climb over their neighbor. I'm glad you're getting educated on the seat. Proclaiming them cheap is a little harsh. They're hardly off the shelf, being custom designed for HAL and THEIR guests. Substandard and at the bottom of the pack is a bit dramatic and without having ever seen the seat or been it it, a bit presumptuous. I guess you're entitled to your opinion, but aren't they best formed with facts and experience? I just think you're selling the new product a bit short, considering all you've seen are some pictures. Give it a try sometime... maybe you'll think differently.
This will hands down put HA well ahead of the pack in terms of hard product from the mainland to HNL and very much in line with the competition for the international flights. DL, AA and UA fly their internationally configured planes, geared towards the business traveler to Hawaii out of necessity, due to range. UA is the only other carrier that has a subfleet of Hawaii planes, but even then, they don't fly the longest EWR and IAD flights. HA is a leisure carrier first and foremost. HA has designed the cabin to fit that clientele and what they've come up with appears to fit their needs best. Comparing the two are apples to oranges.
Last edited by azj; May 24, 2016 at 10:19 pm
#568
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: HNL
Programs: DL PM/1MM, BW DE (lifetime), HH DE, Marriott PE (lifetime), National Emerald Executive
Posts: 7,217
DL, AA and UA fly their internationally configured planes, geared towards the business traveler to Hawaii out of necessity, due to range. UA is the only other carrier that has a subfleet of Hawaii planes, but even then, they don't fly the longest EWR and IAD flights. HA is a leisure carrier first and foremost. HA has designed the cabin to fit that clientele and what they've come up with appears to fit their needs best. Comparing the two are apples to oranges.
Last edited by RealHJ; May 25, 2016 at 12:41 am
#569
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,577
Okay RealHJ The bottom line is that HAL has come up with a premium cabin that fits its role as a full service, high cost leisure carrier bringing people to and from Hawaii. This cabin will meet the needs for the vast majority of their guests and in the end, that's what matters.
#570
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: HNL
Programs: DL PM/1MM, BW DE (lifetime), HH DE, Marriott PE (lifetime), National Emerald Executive
Posts: 7,217
Okay RealHJ The bottom line is that HAL has come up with a premium cabin that fits its role as a full service, high cost leisure carrier bringing people to and from Hawaii. This cabin will meet the needs for the vast majority of their guests and in the end, that's what matters.