RealHJ

Ah, thanks for the pics! ^ I recall that HA was talking about aisle-access from the windows, but I could never see where/how that was so... these pics finally show it. Thanks! It sure is narrow and still likely to bump into a taller passenger's feet and/or duvet at least, thus waking them up, but still is better than climbing over. So, that is good. Not true aisle access (nothing like the staggered lie-flats that so many airlines, like JL that HA is competing head on against, have), but still something nonetheless.

Still though, from US49 to HI, these seats are not nearly up to par with DL A330/767 1-2-1 (and all seats true aisle access) to HNL from MSP and ATL, or UA 767s (2-1-2 but still wider and better seats than HA) from IAD and EWR.

And I would assume that HA will have these seats go on routes such as PEK first (can command the most $$; look at what CA charges for PEK-HNL on its lie-flats) and then Japan, where it faces the stiffest competition from other true lie flats (CA from PEK and DL + JL on the Japan routes). Then after that likely to Australia, and then South Pacific (PPT PPG). At least, that's my speculation, if HA is to try to put these on the routes where it's losing (presumably) the most business to true lie flats..

To US49 I think HA plans to only send A330s to JFK, while replace the other routes now served by 767s or A330s with A320s - in the longer run. Sure doesn't make to send the new A330s to west coast, or even JFK (though then at least HA could compete with UA 767 lie-flat from EWR..).

whjensen

You may be right, but I wonder about load utilization. Moving the A320s on the HNL-LAX routes makes total sense, as you can convert 2 A330 into 3 A320 flights easily with almost an exact match. But SEA, SFO, and the rest of the West Coast have one flight a day, yes? So roughly 280 seats in the new config? The A320s have 190 seats. So it's not an easy switch to move from 1 A330 to either 1 A320 or 2 A320s unless capacity in and out of the airport is completely bonked anyways. I take the SEA-OGG flight a couple times a year and it seems to be full every time, but I wouldn't want to be the exec betting that I'd fill an extra 100 seats per day OR give AS or DL a leg up on a premium route. You guys who are regular would know more - are they planning to expand daily service to the West coast cities?

FYI, I'll withhold judgment until I'm finally get to fly one of these, but yes - that seat looks HARD! And, as someone said, yeah, it doesn't really compare to the international J that we're used to, but it might incent me to take a redeye back home instead of the afternoon flight from the West coast!

russmeyergirl

Thank you so much - very helpful.

FBWFTW

You're quite welcome!
Again-I can't really say for Intl. as if I have a choice I'll fly an Intl carrier abroad BECAUSE their service and products from Y-F are generally far better!

BUT:
Comparing HA/UA competition top to bottom (ex East Coast/JFK)

Price:
-I haven't seen HA prices at the same or below UA's RT price ex NYC for a bunch of different dates I've searched, but I certainly hope they'll be competing fiercely!

Hard/Soft Product:

-The beds on HA are listed at 76" by 20.5" (via DesignAir) and the beds on UA are listed on Seatguru at 75" by 21" and on TPG's "state of biz class lie flat" post at 76" by 20" so it's pretty much apples to apples.

-if HA does a mattress pad or duvet/turndown service, they'll be ahead of UA as I have asked around here-and been told there isn't a topper or turndown.

-HA's service/soft product in F (and also Y/Y+) seems to be far better than UA's according to reviews, videos and threads I've spent quite a bit of time researching. My fav quote for UA EWR-HNL being "bring food even in F" (iirc-I've gotten some answers from you in those threads RealHJ-thanks again!)

-When on HA in F, you get an amenity kit AND lounge access. I know it might not be spectacular compared to SQ/EK et al. But when you book F EWR-HNL w UA, you get the "it's only domestic" treatment which means no lounge access and no amenity kits. Adding in the Hawaiian atmosphere and hospitality IMO really does make a BIG difference.

-HA's planes are newer (likely less MX knock wood)

-HA's 2-2-2 layout is no worse than the UA 777's w 2-2-2 BF flatbeds (which could wind up on EWR-HNL someday!) The layout in general could work well for couples AND biz travellers with couples by the windows and business folks in the centers. HA has at least tried to give aisle access to window seats. As for UA, Mrs. FBWFTW has already seen pics of our seats and asked how I would get to the lav on the 764. (and told me that she's NOT getting up!)

As to your point on the A321Neo's arriving in the next year or so:

-They could both increase A330 West Coast frequencies and/or ADD East Coast (obviously A330 only) destinations once A321Neo's arrive (I believe that BOS/PHL/DC area were tossed around)

-If HA remains branded as a "destination" or "boutique lesiure" carrier then their product is certainly light years ahead of a lot of carriers going West Coast (or PHX to the islands.

-They've said that they won't just dump A330's off West Coast routes-but perhaps change scheduling. For instance LAX has 3-4 daily A330's to HNL iirc. They wouldn't be doing that many flights with low load factors.

-LAX also has KOA/OGG/LIH 1x daily flights (perhaps some seasonal) which could easily be switched to/increased or otherwise supplemented with the A321's

-I think IF the A330-800 gets built (currently only 10 orders iirc w/ HA having 6 of the 10) you'll either see those go on the long distance routes only or open up further markets not within range to HNL now. I believe when Airbus made the intro/pitch to the A330Neo, John Leahy specifically said that "I hope Mark Dunkerley is listening because this plane can do London to Honolulu" which my avgeek brain translated to something like "Mark, buddy old pal, we're NOT going to be making the A350-800 you've already ordered but HAVE I GOT A PLANE FOR YOU!"

Troopers

Solid work FBWFTW!

russmeyergirl

Interesting to see what this will do to the HNL-SYD run. Qantas is about to finish installing their Gen2 Skybeds on this route and now HA will have a similar product which they never even came close to before. Both have milked prices in J on this run in the past (with an inferior product) so this will be very interesting to watch. particuarly as I have saved up my HA miles to try it out!

FBWFTW

Thank you both. I always try to support the likes of HA/B6 and prior to merge VX-the airlines that buck the trend so to speak. I spend probably far too much time reading and researching this stuff but I suppose everyone has to have a hobby.

Still looking for that $5K or 200K HA mile loan to try the seats out so nobody else will have to suffer without a full report =p

Troopers

HA website updated: https://www.hawaiianairlines.com/premiumcabin

Leather seats by Poltrona Frau.

RealHJ

Not really. The big downside - and to me it's a big downside indeed - of the HA seats is the ultra narrow foot and head sections. That will make for far less comfortable sleep, vs. UA which has more ergonomic and comfortable (more like a real single bed) rectangular seats. These HA seats seem even worse than the several generations old DL 777 seats, which also have a very narrow headrest, and I personally find uncomfortable and not conductive to sleep, as there's so little room for the head. These type of narrow-at-the-head seats have been proven to be uncomfortable and have been abandoned by most airlines several int'l J product generations ago...only to be picked up by HA.

At least, that's my personal opinion and observation.

I can't speak for HNL-EWR, but HNL-IAD UA service and food is good. Certainly better than DL on HNL-ATL and HNL-MSP. I would expect that it's the same as HNL-EWR. That being said, UA does seem to really stock a bare minimum of snacks, and they do run out of the chips and other such snacks that pax ask mid-flight, esp. for the return flight (IAD-HNL) that is day time and longer.

That's true and a climb-over would be required. UA 767 design is odd at 2-1-2. Window seats have no direct aisle access, while the center seats have access to both aisles..

At the current fuel prices, that may be sustainable...but with higher fuel prices, the heavy plane with more fuel (which, in turn, burns more fuel) for this ultra-long-haul segment may not be feasible. Most likely still HA will get to LHR through partnerships, such as VS that it has already, and TK recently added (HNL-ICN HA and ICN-IST and onwards such as onwards on TK is what HA seems to be playing for with the TK codeshares). And if the point is to go to Europe, a closer gateway such as IST (just an example, highly unlikely of course) with codeshares from there would make more sense, vs. going to LHR that is going really far and pretty much as far as you can get from HI on the northern hemisphere (unless there's a lot of LHR destination traffic bound for HNL).

FBWFTW

I looked back over the video from KHON and the pics from DesignAir. It seems at least for the head area that a couple of pillows or at least one big one placed across the headrest and inside the "headshell" area will go across there nicely and get you tucked into a nice cozy cocoon (which is my preference for sleeping)

Everyones entitled to theirs of course!

Not happy to hear that! Especially for the daytime flight to Hawaii where I'm the one peeking out the window every other state or so to see what's outside and take pics-gotta have snacks to keep my shutter thumb ready! I'm certainly HOPING to be fed well! I did ok on HA w the food in Y+ but I was still ready for dinner when I got to HNL.

I cut out the quote about fuel prices et al. I think before they open up a bunch more/further intl routes, they'll both trim and boost certain routes. SEA is probably one for sure. LAX could likely go from three spaced out A330's to two A330's (an early and late) plus a middle of the day A321 or two dependent on the Pax loads.

I wasn't suggesting HNL-LHR as an actual route because I don't think the A338 can ACTUALLY do it but that was an Airbus selling point. All in all, they could wind up renewing their A330-200's into the same amount of A330-800's (again assuming it gets built) or even converting to A330-900's or GASP... Maybe even buying 788's or 789's (I think -9's would be the more likely if the situation EVER ACTUALLY got to that point)

Man would I love to get together with a bunch of you guys and talk airplanes and airlines sometime! Preferably somewhere on Waikiki Beach-while watching all the flights curl out of HNL over the Pacific with umbrella drinks in our hands!

RealHJ

I remember once on UA IAD-HNL when the FA went with the first round of snacks and had the small chips bags out out, I asked can I take two. I was told no, but that she'll come back to me if there's any left (I was seated in the first row). She came back with just one last bag of chips. So, the chips they appear stock only one bag per pax, or even less - if you miss the first pass, there's no more... so snacks wise, don't count on much. The food is good and the portion size is also good (though not as generous as the AA portions). But, snacks they don't cater enough, esp. on the daytime flight bound for HNL. That could have changed as of late, though.

Count me in!

azj

In the long run, the 330s are staying on MANY of the mainland routes and the new product will first launch domestically. In the fall, as modifications become more prevalent in the fleet, there will be an announcement on which routes will see the new cabins dedicated to them. There will also be an announcement of more product enhancements... like new blankets, pillows, service ware etc...

There's no way that the 321neo's could replace the lift the 330s provide today. A few 330 flights may become 321neo, in an effort to provide more seats and frequency, for example splitting a destination that only sees 1 330s today, into 2 321's. The bulk of the 321s will be flown to the neighbor islands from the west coast. The 330 will very likely stay in cities like LAX, SEA, SFO, LAS, of course JFK, maybe even SAN and PDX. Where there's cargo, there will be a 330. HA's cargo business is bucking the trend of the industry and does quite well.

Yes, there is absolutely aisle access for ALL guests. You can throw in extra terms like "true" or "direct" if you want, but the point is that the window seat guest no longer has to climb over their neighbor. I'm glad you're getting educated on the seat. Proclaiming them cheap is a little harsh. They're hardly off the shelf, being custom designed for HAL and THEIR guests. Substandard and at the bottom of the pack is a bit dramatic and without having ever seen the seat or been it it, a bit presumptuous. I guess you're entitled to your opinion, but aren't they best formed with facts and experience? I just think you're selling the new product a bit short, considering all you've seen are some pictures. Give it a try sometime... maybe you'll think differently.

This will hands down put HA well ahead of the pack in terms of hard product from the mainland to HNL and very much in line with the competition for the international flights. DL, AA and UA fly their internationally configured planes, geared towards the business traveler to Hawaii out of necessity, due to range. UA is the only other carrier that has a subfleet of Hawaii planes, but even then, they don't fly the longest EWR and IAD flights. HA is a leisure carrier first and foremost. HA has designed the cabin to fit that clientele and what they've come up with appears to fit their needs best. Comparing the two are apples to oranges.

RealHJ

As am I. I remember HA representing it as direct aisle access, but I just didn't see it until the very helpful post & pics from FBWFTW (many thanks for that!).. still though it's likely to disturb the aisle pax and bump into their feet, esp. if the passenger is taller, and almost surely pull on their blanket, so still likely to get woken up (sort of like in the BA seats I think).

I didn't say at the bottom of the pack. I said HA was at the bottom of the pack before and is still there now with the 1980s era recliners. Now with these seats won't be at the bottom of the pack. That spot will be taken by NH and their horrible old recliner seats (which NH is stil putting even in brand new aircraft like their 787s!). I said near the bottom (may be a bit of an exaggeration...more like mid-range I guess) when it comes to int'l competition. Below DL, CA, MU, JL true lie-flats with direct and unobstructed aisle access. Below KE more ergonomic true rectangular recliners (but not all with direct aisle access). Right below KE... and probably on par with UA NRT flights (2-2 or 2-4-2, narrow lie-flats). And HA would be above OZ, CI with their angled lie flats, and of course above the NH recliners. That's all the airlines I've flown to/from HNL that I can think of at the moment, so speaking from experience given the aircraft that they fly to HNL. There's some that I'm missing, of course (ones I haven't flown recently in the last year or two).

Agreed 100%. Just before I book any flights on HA, I really want to know that the route will have the new aircraft. The old recliners really truly is at the bottom of the pack, along with NH (not sure which one is worse, current HA recliners or the NH recliners), and I am, frankly, to spoiled to 'endure' those old recliners; not when there's so many better choices out there.

Above practically all but the lone DL 767 LAX-HNL-NGO and return for west coast flights, yes. Below DL and UA for east coast flights, though.

Well, not really, as a seat on a plane is a seat on a plane. The reasoning why airline X flies aircraft Y on a route, frankly, doesn't matter to 99.999% of customers. What does matter is the aircraft and the seating and how it compares to the competition. It's as simple as that. The competition is what it is. No reason to come up with excuses or rationale (as valid as it may be - and what you are saying is true, I just mean irrelevant in most passengers' eyes); just have to look at it at the face value.

azj

Okay RealHJ The bottom line is that HAL has come up with a premium cabin that fits its role as a full service, high cost leisure carrier bringing people to and from Hawaii. This cabin will meet the needs for the vast majority of their guests and in the end, that's what matters.

RealHJ

Agreed. I never said anything to the contrary, BTW. This definitely moves HA up the chain from bottom to just being in the, let's say, bottom 1/2 (but closer to to top of it), when it comes to the seat quality when compared to other int'l carriers flying to HNL. It's a huge improvement from right now...a bit disappointing also, true, as HA is still trailing many other airlines, but clearly that is what HA management feels is the right approach, and indisputably a huge improvement from the old recliners. In short we're in agreement, just phrasing it and looking at it from different, yet complimentary, angles.