You only tip 12%? Yikes!

That was my thought, too, when I read that post, but we've rehashed this subject a gazillion times over, and I knew nothing productive would come of bringing it up. :)

that's 60% of the recommended amount. if i could find your company, i would call them, and explain to them that you are a 60% kind of guy, and they should knock your salary by 40%.

:D I could understand 12% if it was lousy service, 15% if it was decent service, and 20% if it was great service, but 12% as a standard seems low. I'd guess that if they happen to be a regular customer at an establishment, they never receive the perks that most regulars tend to, and probably have servers fighting over who will escape having to serve that table. :)
:D I like that way of thinking!

Because where I reside, they already tack on 8.75% sales tax onto it.

So for a $15.99 meal, I end up paying $1.40 additional in sales tax at 8.75% which comes to $17.39. Add 12% onto that and its an additional $2.09. Overall my $15.99 meal comes to a total closer to $20.00.

Hence, I never really do go out to eat in the first place; maybe once a month to take mom out to dinner (once-a-month regular to a Japanese restaurant where we've been going since I was a kid; except for the who pays role) is about the extent of my restaurant experience. Add in the sales tax and the tipping process, it's not worth it to eat out. I really don't understand the mindset of people who go out to eat more than half of the week.


If a waiter serves 10 tables in an hour (the extent of service is "bringing water" because the Japanese restaurant I go to, the sushi comes to you instead of you ordering it via a waiter) and each of those tables tips at 20% ($2-$3 per table), the waiter would be making $20-$30+ an hour. I seriously don't see a point to it.

Between me and mom, we usually eat about $70 worth of conveyor belt sushi (including drinks, fruits and desserts). Add in 8.75% sales tax, that comes to $76.13. Add in 20% tip, that then comes to $91.36, where the waiter whose extent of job is filling up water gets $15.23 in tips. On just my table alone. Not including the other 9 tables he/she might be serving in that hour.

How does it justify that $70 worth of conveyor belt sushi now comes to a total of $91.36 with the waiter making $15.23 in tips?

The "thing" that's doing the biggest job of bringing food to my table is the conveyor belt, not the waiter. Why would I want to pay a 20% tip rate on top of the 8.75% sales tax rate when the waiter would be making $20-$30+ an hour because they can now serve 10+ tables an hour and leave the hardest job to a conveyor belt, and their hardest job now is filling up water?

The correct amount to tip is the amount the customer wishes to pay.

The server shouldn't be punished for the sales tax you pay.

In a case like the restaurant you mention, your tip is probably adequate, in that the server isn't bringing food, assuming the sushi chef isn't also expecting a tip from that. However, if you are somewhere that the server is doing more work, i.e., delivering food, taking oders, etc., then they do typically deserve more.

Most restaurants I frequent do not assign 10+ tables/hour to servers, in part because if they have that many tables, they are less likely to provide good service to all of the tables. Something closer to no more than 5 is more the norm.

As far as eating out half of the week, if you cannot afford the tip, plus the sales tax, plus the meal, don't go out to eat. :)

what makes me laugh is tipping for winning in vegas...like in blackjack

casino should pay these people, not gamblers who happen to be lucky

In most of these conveyor belt sushi restaurants (getting quite popular here in LA), there's usually only two waiters serving 10+ "tables" (more like counters). There really isn't much for a waiter to do other than filling up water and ringing up the bill as the biggest job of bringing food is done by a conveyor belt machine.

In that light, I see this more like a fast food restaurant than a full restaurant. If I don't tip at McDonald's (or even Carl's Jr. where they bring me the Six Dollar Burger to your table), I really don't see the nature of paying the full 20% tip.


I'm happily single. If it's between paying $15.99+tax+tips for a lasagna at an Italian restaurant, I'd rather buy frozen lasagna for $10/10 at my local supermarket. :D

So you're either responsible for the underpayment of the waiter if you fail to tip at the levels insisted on by the tipping Mafia or the unemployment of the waiter if you don't eat out - can't win. Not to mention the fact that eating in restaurants is something we would like to keep out of reach of the lower classes. Only Wall Street Bankers/Brokers should be allowed in restaurants in the first place so we should actually shoot for much higher levels of tipping to give us proper control of those who can eat out

All depends on location. When in Rome.

Too many in this thread want to pretend they're back home when they aren't. If you are in a country/location where tips are the bulk of the wage and a 20% tip is the norm, it's cheap to tip less unless the service is really bad. On the other hand, elsewhere, a tip may be for very special service.

Same thing with the rants about cover charges in London and the like. It's the way things are in London. And the fact that it's not that way in Dubuque means nothing.

I tip around 18-25% for excellent service. However, I feel the whole tipping culture has gotten out of hand. I feel like it has become a form of extortion and entitlement, not a reward or bonus. At large restaurants I frequent at, I feel pressured to tip even on days I receive bad service because I want to eat there again. I don't want to fear that staff will spit in my food or blacklist me next time I come. In addition, you must tip otherwise society will label you "cheap". I never understood the double standard between individuals and companies when it comes to the cheap label.

Here at FT, we talk about airlines, hotels, cars, etc. We understand that they are companies and their only reason for existence is to make money. Thus, their goal is to maximize profits. The goal of a company is to maximize revenue while minimizing costs. Therefore, companies are "cheap".

Yet, for individuals, trying to be conservative financially you get the "cheap" label, when you are merely doing the same thing that a company would.

I don't get the double standard here.

I just wish the restaurant industry can move on to a model where there is no tipping expected at all.

This is what infuriates me.

Yesterday I paid a visit to a famous Viennese institution - Figlmullers - they specialise in large schnitzels. So my wife likes to go there for her first meal on our regular visits to Vienna - normally 3 or 4 times per year.

I have been eating here for years and the food is ok and predictable. I have no complaint about the food. Yesterday - for the first time - when I paid the bill the waiter rounded the bill up and retained around 10% and gave me back the remaining notes. This the first time this has happened to me in Vienna. Service is discretionary. I asked him whether he treated Austrians in that way or was it just tourists. He became rude and aggressive. Sadly over time many places that cater for tourists lose respect for them.

I have no complaints over service charges but I hate it when waiters decide to take their own tips.

Instead of asking him that, I would have told him that he forgot some of the change and sent him back to get it. After he brought the correct change, I would decide how much to tip, if any.

I was standing at the till. Thanks anyway!

In the United States, you would need to get the IRS to move on that. They're largely why tipping is such a big deal. They are pretty strict about charging people a % of their sales as income.

That said, I've been places where tipping is not expected and the service was damn horrible. I'll take having a way to hold people accountable and rewarding people ANY day. The alternative is bad service.

If you're a regular at a particular place, you might not want to tip low, but you can definitely get taken care of. The wait staff know who their regulars are as do the management and owner. Of course, that happens at places where people don't know you anyways.

I sent back french toast a few weekends ago because the bread was cut too damn thick. The waiter went out of her way to make sure I got something I wanted. That ended up being some hybrid dish that wasn't even on the menu. I wouldn't have gotten that result in a country without a tipping culture.

Huh? Why on earth not? I get looked after in a similar way in more than one place where I'm a regular, and I live in a country where the employers pay the staff and the customers don't have to bribe them.

The level of service you get isn't the same. I've been to countries like yours. I'll take someone who's looking to get the immediate reward for giving service as opposed to someone who's picking up an hourly paycheck.

Then we'll just have to disagree. Service in "countries such as yours" can make my skin crawl when Hi I'm Brad And I'll Be Your Server Tonight fawns all over me. Your opinion of what passes for good service doesn't pass muster in places where French Toast isn't considered to be restaurant fare.

Which countries are you referring to?

anywhere that is not the USA, I'm guessing

True. It's often much better than in the US.

And as BadgerBoi points out, the fake friendly, overly intimate nature of what is considered 'service' in some places in the US isn't considered service elsewhere. Crouching down at the table to chat with a guest or take an order is a firable offence at the places I used to work, and removing a plate before all diners have finished is punishable. (We've had that discussion already with the FTer who is a server)

We've gone over this a gazillion times before in this thread. It boils down to culture and personal preference for social interaction. You're also equating expectations of casual dining with expectations of fine dining.

So, please don't get into culture wars. Some Americans appreciate feeling like the server is connecting with them on a peer-to-peer level, because that's how our culture operates. And when I'm just out for a casual meal or am at a restaurant with friends or coworkers talking about and working on a project, I appreciate the staff getting stuff out of my way so I have room on the table to do what I need to do (whether it's pull the laptop out to show them something, get out a paper to write, or just lean forward for comfort). Is it concocted and rushed? Yes, but that's what I expect and that's what I want in that setting. I'm not there to enjoy the experience of dining, I'm there to get in, get fed, and either get to work (especially if I'm alone) or get out.

Do I expect that at an establishment like Per Se or Daniel? Of course not. But I'm not bringing a laptop or a notepad or leaning forward to relax at a place like that, and not only do I have a different expectation of how the waitstaff behaves towards me when I'm paying $150 for a meal instead of $15, I also behave differently myself. And at a place like that, where the waitstaff stands to make $40-50 or more per person for a two- or three-hour engagement, you find some of the top service of any restaurant anywhere, and they're not crouching down or prematurely clearing plates. Perhaps that amazing service is because they're going to make $50 per hour on a table of four (not a poorly-paying job by any stretch of the imagination!), so they're highly motivated to ensure your experience is top-notch. (I've even had top-notch service when the prices have been half or less of what I'd pay at a place like that; in fact, the best service I've experienced anywhere in the world, where everything was timed absolutely perfectly and the waitstaff were the absolute perfect balance was at Del Posto, where the cost worked out (for dinner) to $75 per person.)

Sure, great service can be found anywhere (and I say this having just come back from two weeks in Japan), but given the American culture and motivations Americans have for what they do, tipping probably is the best way to ensure that the experience meets what the customers expect it to be. If you're going to argue that the culture itself is therefore flawed, that's a whole different ball of wax and probably best taken to another thread in OMNI.

In Italy it’s common going to family-run restaurants (some are Michelin starred), and service is great even if you generally don’t tip the owner or his family members.

I really enjoyed reading your whole post.

And the quote above is quite correct.

Tipping may be the best system
HOWEVER, it avoids the fact that tipping has gone way overboard. I cannot justify supporting an industry where the untrained staff are making more than doctors and lawyers just because of a cloud of secrecy about how much they are really taking home.

I don't know about the US, but in Canada this money is virtually tax free.

So, while tipping may be the best method. How can we allow them to guilt us into a situation that is already overly generous in their favor?

The post (and other responses) were in response to this comment and similar follow up comments:

The premise from that post is that tipping equates to 'good service', but that just isn't the case. In the example given, a similar outcome may have been the result, regardless of whether or not the server was tipped.

Tipping does not equate to better service. Ending the tipping culture (the premise of this thread) does not mean that there will be a decline in service.

The post (and other responses) were in response to this comment and similar follow up comments:

The premise from that post is that tipping equates to 'good service', but that just isn't the case. In the example given, a similar outcome may have been the result, regardless of whether or not the server was tipped.

Tipping does not equate to better service. Ending the tipping culture (the premise of this thread) does not mean that there will be a decline in service.

Regardless of when I was working for the Chef of the Year or at a Bavarian banquet setting, if the meal was improperly prepared it was replaced. And there are many, many times as a veg that I order 'off the menu' and have something special created for me, at restaurants of varying types around the world.

The bottom line is that tipping should be a reward for something special. That is how it started off in the US and other countries. As soon as it becomes something that the staff (and their employers) see as an entitlement, it ceases to serve its original purpose and becomes a hassle and a burden.

This.

I'm just back from lunch at a place I go to regularly, maybe twice a week. The waitress who served me knows me, I know her, we don't know each others' names but if we see each other out of the restaurant, we smile and say hello to each other.

I always drink the same thing, but my food order varies. She always asks me "the usual?" and brings me my drink, then takes my meal order. She knows as if by telepathy when it's time for my second drink, so she walks past, looks at me and I nod.

Maybe one visit out of three, only one drink will appear on my bill when I've taken two.

I don't tip, nobody does in that place, and if I left any change they would probably chase me down the street because of my faux pas.

I enjoy going there, she clearly enjoys serving me and I'm happy knowing that she's paid a fair wage, and by taking my business there she's assured of her job.

So, when people try to tell me that you can't get the service you like in "countries like mine", I'm happy to smirk knowingly that they are wrong, and likely have rarely strayed far from the village that gave birth to them.

Pay a little extra for the food, with O Care the share will be there, it will be passed on...

Can you imagine working for 2 bucks an hour and relying on a stiff to tip...

But then the owner does get away paying less than minimum wage...

Puh-leeeeeeze, can we put this rumor to rest!

Are there places that pay $2 per hour? Yes
Are there places where the waiters ans watresses PAY the owner to work? Yes

But, how much are your servers making? It's based on menu price AND volume. So, it's not just fine dining. Servers at bars and places like IHOP can make insane money too.

I worked at an up-scale place. My average tip was $20 (sometimes zero, sometime $80).
Set menu. No surprises. Nothing difficult.
I had 6 tables, 4-5 seatings per day (sometimes a tour before, or after, or both before and after).
Before sharing with my team members, I would pull in an average of $480-600, not including the tours. After sharing, I would make no less than$300, and up to $600 per day. Tours could add another $100 per day, easily.

You realize that this was $6,000 - $12,000 per month? I also made my wages $14 per hour, medical, dental, and pension....

During another period, I worked in the desert bar. My average tip was $2 - 3. From 6pm - 2am, with 12 tables, I could easily rotate tables all night. Cocktails, deserts and coffee, before dinner, before bed.... easily pulling in $200 -300 per shift. Again, another $4000-7000 per month.

Should we now look at that IHOP waiter? the fine dining server?

The money is insane. If people knew, they would support a new system. But the facade of guilt and pity continue.

I'd be glad to make $2 an hour to have that kind of money back in my life!

Really? Do you eat Chateaubriand for breakfast? :rolleyes: The places you seem to be talking about sound a lot more like chain restaurants than anything else. I travel all over this country pretty much every week and short of the the 2-3 times I've eaten at an Applebees, I've never had overly attentive service.

That's a load of crap. I've gotten better service in places where tipping is part of the culture. The staff bust their .... You get that drink replaced or the next bottle without having to chase people down. We both have a vested interest in me spending as much as possible. That's not the case when someone doesn't have that variable compensation to go along with things.

I think you're taking one specific example and using it against an absolute statement. I haven't read anyone here saying that it defies the law of physics to ever get good service at a restaurant in a country with a non-tipping culture. What people are saying is that you get better service in countries with tipping cultures. People want your bill to be bigger and they want you to be happy.

When I worked in the industry, I'd track my tip percentage, think of things I could do better and reflect on the tables. I'd always want everyone happy and eating and drinking the best things. I wanted that big tip at the end. It's a huge motivation. Much like how people in many industries get performance based bonuses. Companies give them as a way to incent behavior.

In the US, it is taken to the extreme, mostly due to the government tracking check totals and charging people income tax automatically. That said, your meal wouldn't be any less expensive if the restaurants were paying them more hourly wages in place of the tips.

In terms of the overall subject of the thread, thankfully, none of you can end it. People like me will benefit from it.

How often do you eat at places where tipping is not the norm? You are debating with people who eat several times a week at such places, and who have a very wide frame of reference. (And I worked in the US for years and am still there for much of the year, so have a varied experience with tipped servers as well as non-tipped servers)

Your example of 'chasing people down' reflects a difference in service style. In many places a meal isn't meant to be quick in and out and one shouldn't feel pushed, hence there is a pause between courses etc. (Yes, I realise that we were warned not to discuss culture, but using that as a validation that non-tipped servers provide 'poor' service when one doesn't seemingly understand that difference in service styles impacts your argument) Your argument would mean that outside of the US, there are no restaurants which provide excellent service and experiences, which simply isn't true.

For the record, I went to my favourite 'fast/slow food' Asian place in Germany on the weekend, where everything is prepared to order, in a few minutes time, and requested a number 32 with several variations. They as usual didn't find anything unusual about ordering far off the menu. And nobody received a tip from me, as is usual there.

I vaguely recall that more than two decades ago as a lowly commis I made about 6DM/hour. That didn't include the non-monetory compensation such as the phenomenal training and being able to quote that experience on my CV. I considered myself very well compensated for that very junior role.

No, but it would be a healthier choice than French (sic) toast.

I don't eat at chain restaurants, so I couldn't comment on the experience. Never heard of an Applebees, never mind eaten at one.

Not in the least, it's pretty common experience anywhere I could consider myself to be a regular. (with the exception of the regular freebies, that's just a nice thing from the particular place that I referred to.)

Not where I live, I'm happy to say.

(shrug) You're welcome to it, just don't fool yourself that it's the only way to receive decent service. It's not, as 97% of the planet's population would attest, and whatever benefit "people like you" imagine they receive, you're welcome to it.

I don't have time to translate it right now, but this is an interesting article about the role of Commis de Rang. http://www.abendblatt.de/wirtschaft/...s-de-Rang.html

What I think that is missing from this discussion is that a server is considered a career position, with significant training. After 2,5 to 3 years of apprenticeship, and following final exams one spends 1 to 2 years as a Commis before progressing. That isn't unsual whether one is serving in a high end hotel or a mid-range restaurant. I don't know if the local Applebee's server has similar training (and BadgerBoi, I have eaten at an Applebees - as well as a WaffleHouse! - and you aren't missing much, in my opinion) There are some skilled servers posting on this thread and on FT in general, but I don't think that we are always discussing comparable roles here.

It's a professional career, and tips are not expected, just as one doesn't tip other professional positions.

I agree with sean the pilot!

i dont have a problem with tipping per se - but what i DO have a problem with is the percentage of the bill that I seem to be expected to tip in places like the US

I posted a while back about eating in an upmarket hotel restaurant in Keystone CO. The bill for the 3 of us (including taxes) was well over $500 and my husband added $100 as a tip - and our server actually looked disappointed with that! The time he spent interacting with us meant that we were tipping him $5 or more per minute.

Whilst eating - we noticed that he was waiting on 6 tables, most with parties bigger than ours - and the turnover in the restaurant was such that each table was probably used at least twice if not 3 times each night (that was a weekday evening in the summer). Assuming he got $100 from each group - that meant he was pocketing at least $1200 - $1800 each night. Multiply that by 5 for a weeks worth of tips - that is a minimum of $6000 a week (just in tips!) and that translates to nearly $290,000.

Is a server honestly worth that much? I'm not sure what nurses, and teachers earn in the US, but lets face it a server is not usually the most qualified person, so why is it their right to earn quite so much when those who teach children or nurse the sick probably get paid a lot less than that.

Granted these figures applied to someone working in an expensive restaurant, but is the service provided by that waiter so much better than that provided in a Hardees or IHOP, where the servers tip is based on a much lower bill?

Wouldn't it be fairer for all servers to be given a mandatory tip of a few dollars a head - with anything more being at the diners discretion?

I admit I am from the UK where a lot of restaurants add Service Charges (cover charges seem to be vanishing these days) in lieu of tips and these are 10-12.5% and up to 15% for large parties.

Being expected to tip a quarter of the value of my bill certainly makes me think twice before eating out in the US

Why are you citing your experiences but refusing to name the countries? I asked you about which countries you are referring to on the previous page, and you didn't respond. Now you are making the same vague claim again.

I actually see it as a bonus that my waiter is not trying to make me spend as much as possible. YMMV.

They don't make $2/hour. If tips make up at least 30% of their income, employers can pay employees $2.13/hour, but their tips MUST push that amount up to at least $7.25/hour, which is minimum wage. If they don't earn enough in tips to make $7.25/hour, then the employer MUST make up the difference.

A friend of ours used to be a bartender at Chili's. A few years ago, he said that between what he had to claim in tips (credit card tips, etc.), he earned $56,000 in a year. That's just with what he had to claim in tips.

Tipping 10% on the bill is pretty standard in restaurants in Argentina and in my experience surly distant service is too. I always assume it just goes with a good Malbec and perfectly cooked steak and was my expected contribution to the waiter's psychoanalysis bill. Doesn't seem to support any universal law that where tipping is de rigueur good service is too.