I recall an Italian restaurant Zurich. A hotel restaurant in Austria and when I asked what the customary practice was, they said 15%. Another restaurant outside of Versailles in Paris. London waterfront restaurant. Restaurant at the olympic pavilion mall adjacent. Best I can recall if restaurants that when asked they mentioned American levels for tipping were acceptable.

I tipped a bit less but left a bit more than customary when visiting

My objection is that they serve as a discreet way of pressuring you to tip, and making you feel guilty if you don't. Besides, they are usually on the higher side. I remember one restaurant had calculations for 18%, 20% and 25%. Isn't 18% (the lowest option) already on the higher end of the standard tip?

Tipping is meant to be voluntary. It's no longer truly voluntary if the restaurant says "hey, here's how much we want you to tip us".

My guess from previous posts and what you posted here is that you were at some very tourist oriented restaurants, and that you stood out as a North American tourist, especially if you ASKED how much to tip. Most likely unfortunately they saw you as an easy mark.

And while this really should be on the 'I Hate Rick Steves' thread, I was not surprised to see him asking on his website 'Is Europe getting away from tipping?' 'Getting away from?!' However, he explains your experience as I did:

I think you're right. I can even remember Bern Switzerland at a pub besides the tourist centre. Unfortunately, all of the restaurants are used to Yankee sized tips.

We eat mostly at places that are frequented, busy and lined up.. As a sign that the food is good quality and we don't get sick. Can't afford to get sick with a then 6 year old and 2 year old.

In the UK the bog standard restaurant tip out in the sticks is usually no more than 10% maybe a bit more or a bit less if it makes the sums easier. (i.e. a £37 bill will in a lot of cases be just rounded up to £40), but I have friends who don't tip and don't see why they should - they get equally good service as I do and I'm not aware they've ever been verbally abused by staff. In pubs and pub restaurants where you usually pay first it's usually nothing and there is usually nothing to indicate a tip is expected, as is the case in virtually all aspects.

I have noticed that in London restaurants suggested service charges of 12.5 - 15% are increasingly being automatically added to your bill 'for convenience' . You don't have to pay these but I suspect most people will not feel comfortable asking to have them removed. In London in pubs I have noticed a tip jar starting to appear on the bar but this is virtually unheard of outside London, perhaps with the exception of at Christmas. In my student days, back in Victorian times, I had a bar job to help pay the bills. a tip from a customer was usually "get yourself a drink" and certainly if it was a regular customer that was exactly what they expected you to do - not pocket the money. In a busy pub I'd be doing well if I were offered more than 2 drinks a night.

What is evident from this discussion, that even those that are happy or resigned to tipping seem to spend a lot of their time in restaurants and hotels fretting over who and how much they should be tipping.

That sums it up pretty well for the UK and most of Europe and Australasia.

Tips, if any, are a welcome bonus, not a component of pay.
There is no obligation and no need to feel any. There is no set percentage if you do want to tip.
You are not upsetting anyone by the smallness or non-existence of your tip, unless it's in an area where they've come to expect calculated exact percentage tips from American tourists and taken the job on that basis.

Even then, it'll be a case of "swings and roundabouts", "win some , lose some" from the staff point of view. (But of course, if you ask them, they'll suggest a generous amount! They're not that naive.)

That is why "Tipping Guides" for anywhere but North America are, well, misguided.

I must admit I tip more and more often now, probably influenced by trips to America or travelling with Americans, but back when I was skint I tipped zero (except in North America of course!) and never got treated any differently.

I fear that you missed my point.

1) The countries you visited have no tipping culture. I remember that we tried to explain that to you before you left, so that you wouldn't tip the same amounts that you reported tipping in America. You were concerned about costs if I recall, and tipping 10-20% or more is unnecessary

2) The extortion of tips is not common to us who are local (I've NEVER experienced that, even when dining in the Latin Quarter at a touristy restaurant with a very obviously American friend). It seems to be a tactic used by some servers in certain restaurants aimed at North American tourists who do not know any better. You asked by your admission how much to tip, which indicated that you didn't know the local norms, and you were taken advantage of. Rick Steves :rolleyes: reports that on his site :rolleyes: and I can well see that happening based on the restaurants I have passed which proudly proclaim 'recommended by Rick Steves!'

3) The reason why people are often frustrated is that by bringing that behaviour here, one reinforces the stereotype of the ill-informed (or braggart) North American who refuses to adhere to local norms. That in turn encourages some staff to behave in such a fashion, encouraging obvious tourists to tip in North American (and not European) fashion. That then defies the point of this thread ie it encourages the tipping culture in Europe and the UK to become like the North American tipping culture

4) sick? One doesn't have to eat in an obvious tourist trap to avoid becoming ill in most of the world.

Exactly! Eat in the places populated by mostly American tourists, and the staff may expect (or demand) that one pays in (ill-informed) American tourist fashion.

I fear that I actually offended one of my favourite servers in London recently, by leaving a very small amount extra on the bill. (The fact that I left him a tip was what he considered offensive, not the amount) He's from India, a country which has also been severely impacted by big tippers coming in from other countries and changing the tipping culture.

Two things:
Ordered food at a restaurant last weekend and they messed up badly on my order. The waiter/restaurant still got their tip because of the "mandatory" charge for a large group. I wish I could deduct for their failure/shortcoming.

In Dublin, Ireland, a restaurant had the audacity to stamp on my receipt "tip not included". They only did it to Americans as I looked around. The most ridiculous (insert inflammatory word here) I've encountered.

I wish I had the skill to tell people's nationality and read their bills just by looking around.

... Or the superhero eyesight to be able to see what is written on the receipts of all the tables in a restaurant... :)

I don't really stand out as a N American as I am a visible minority (even though I am one due to naturalisation.)
Even in HK (place of birth) they usually have 加一服務費 (service charge) of 10% added that serves as a tip (though I think that it is more easily reported this way, not that salaries tax is very high there.)
(OT: Last time I went there, I saw people leave additional money beyond this. The servers were laughing after they left. Then again, this was in a touristy part of Kowloon...)

One waiter's story: http://strangeronbakerstreet.tumblr....w-olive-garden

;)

Good afternoon....

Topic check! :)

Which is "I hate tipping, how can we end it?"

I have allowed some leeway for civil, thoughtful, respectful discussion of tipping around the world (not just the narrow subject of how it can be ended). But discussions of whether busy restaurants are less purportedly health-threatening, etc., are off-topic and posts re have been deleted.

Thank you.

cblaisd
Moderator, Dining Buzz

I tip in every country I have been to.
My money, my choice.

Couldn't agree more. "Choice" is the key.

But that's a different situation - the poster said that he asked the server what amount to tip, and they told him what to top. What you are talking about is a preprinted 'service charge' which applies to every diner, which is common many places.

Ancien Maestro, I don't think that it is 'sociological'. It really isn't that difficult to figure out, either. I think that you were given very good advice before your trip about what to tip, and how much to tip, from locals here on FT.

Think of it this way:

A person from Germany goes to Honolulu, and eats at a restaurant. The bill is $28.90, and they leave $30, 'because that's the way we do it'. One could say that is disrespectful, rude, or even ignorant, right?

Now someone from America goes to Germany and the bill comes to 28,90 Euro. They leave 35 Euro, 'because that's the way we do it'. One could say that is disrespectful, rude, or even ignorant, right?

But it is actually worse in that situation. In the former, only the waiter was impacted. In the latter, the North American tipping culture is used in a country where 20% tip is not the norm. Unscrupulous servers will try and extract 20% from the next diner who appears to be from North America, when they ask, just as it apparently happened to you. That's why I think that Rick Steves addresses it on his site, especially because a lot of his followers tend to eat at the same restaurants, where I suspect that this is quite common to try and extort the unknowing tourist for a larger tip.

This is how such things spread, and it's why people don't like it when someone disregards local cultures and norms. It's also many times embarrassing for the person on the receiving end of the tip.

And I say that as a former server and someone who worked in positions where tips were received.

Certainly I was mindful to tip less than what I'm used to when in Europe last year.. and I agree I received good advice much as what's processed into my getting the tips, resulted in a dream vacation that I will never duplicate even if I tried. Centered around the Olympics, seeing Usain Bolt, watching gold medals won and dissapointments happen live in center stage. We are thinking of going back to Europe but probably in a couple more years so because of such a one off experience at our first summer Olympics and the excitement it created..

I agree that it doesn't look good to tip excessive for poor service. As I recall, most of my tipping went no more than 12% for fantastic service, even though I was told different. 10% before taxes, and take out being taken off. Was I supposed to tip have tip less? I'm always and open to advice given.

Of course it is. Just as it is my choice to not tip in the US :)

Yes, I do think that what you tipped was excessive.

The goofed up order may have been the kitchen's fault, not the server's fault. Why would you not complain to the manager about your meal before settling the bill?

Apparently when Starbucks brought their brown water and 'pastries' to Paris, they also brought their begging jars! That's what I am trying to avoid - the spreading of the North American tip culture and encouraging us to change our habits and tip for fast food.

I actually see tourists putting coins into the 'used tasting spoon' container at Amorino :eek:

That's a bit hard on SB. Most of their drinks appear to be light brown milk, some even with a faint but discernible smell of coffee.

:D I'm bitter. I was reduced to visiting a Starbucks this week (NOT in Paris!) and had to explain 3x what a double espresso macchiato should be. They kept giving me two shots of espresso in a large cup filled with hot milk and a little foam, and trying to add some syrup. And they had those pseudo-French bakery items (I don't recall them being that bad when the bakery was actually owned by a Frenchman)

Needless to say, the only 'tip' which they received from me was a 'tip' on the actual definition of espresso macchiato. (Does anyone recall years ago when Starbucks first became a chain that they actually had large pictures on the walls with the ratio of espresso to milk to foam in each drink?)

Even if you know that tipping is seen as an insult by the locals, you insist on tipping anyway?

Ok. I tried to cut it back and didn't get the tip down far enough. How much is an acceptable % to tip at restaurants in European countries? You mentioned 5% IIRC. I realized it my tipping was on the high end but I failed to realize it was excessive.

On the tours generally I tipped 10 euros for the whole party in Venice, Rome, Florence, Milan, Salzburg, etc.

I never tip at Starbucks anyways...

Who in his right mind tips at Starbucks?

If I pay cash and have excess coin change, I'll drop the remains in the tip jar. That is about as far as I go when it comes to coffee shop tipping.

That's the extent of it for me as well. I generally use my Starbucks card though, so I don't tip.

Right on.

But that IS tipping! Why should I give them (and why should expect me to) my money, over and above the cost of the drink? Especially when so many Starbucks have the automated 'push a button' machines for the espresso drinks? They aren't even 'making' a drink, or expending any effort at all.

It may be an American thing, but in the UK, Eurozone, and Canada those coins can equal several dollars. I'm certainly not going to give them more than the inflated cost of a mediocre drink. I don't see any other chains I frequent doing this.

Does McDonald's have a begging jar on the counter in America?

I look at it as a way to dispose of loose change that I may not want.

McDonalds almost always has a "Ronald McDonald House" charity box for that purpose.

[QUOTE=exbayern;21298615]Personally, I find keeping the coins in my pocket (that are probably layered in some sort of influenza bug) more of a nuisance than it is worth.

Ditto, and something I appreciate in places like the US and Thailand where the smallest bill is a relatively low value -- it's easier to pitch quarters and smaller coins without having to pick out the high-value ones first.

I haven't used Canadian currency as an adult, but the worst alternative I've hit is Australia -- nothing smaller than a AU$5 note, AND the AU$2 coin is both too small on its own merits AND smaller than the AU$1 coin. I'm probably overemphasizing its diminution in my memory when I think of it as "roughly the size of a US dime" (US$0.10 coin for non-US folks unfamiliar with our terminology) but certainly not by that much.

Exactly the same in Canada.
($2 and $1 are fairly large, though.)
Australia is still worse IMO as many places surcharge for CC use, unlike Canada.

I remember they have CA$1/$2 coins, but haven't a clue what they look like or more importantly how large they are. A quick look on wikipedia shows what they look like, and that the $2 is bimetallic (seems always helps distinguish currency quickly! Wish the US would have considered it for the US$1 coin, but the new one had to be vending-machine compatible with the useless old SBA ones.)

Of the places I've gone regularly, the UK seems to do high-value coins best -- the 2-pound coin is bimetalic and honking huge, and the pound coin, while not huge, is physically solid enough and distinct enough to be difficult to mistake even fumbling in a pocket.

It's interesting that the same places who've adopted the newer and more durable polymer banknotes are mostly the same ones that have gotten rid of their lowest-denomination bill; the higher durability would seem to me to eliminate some of the advantage of going to coins for that.

So if the total is $3.10, and you pay with a $5, you throw away $0,90? That is definitely an American mentality. 2 Euro and 2 pound coins can add up very quickly.

A 2 Euro coin is almost identical in size to a Canadian toonie and a 2 pound coin (anywhere from 25 to 28 mm). They're all similar in look and size, so how can one say that the UK 'does it best'?!

Back to tipping, I'm certainly not about to freely give away my coins as a tip. I do like the McDonalds charity option as it is voluntary, but the whole mentality of coins being too difficult just astounds me. You're tipping people as a convenience to yourselves, for having provided no real service.

We don't have coins worth that much here; the half-dollar and dollar coins are not really in common circulation. On $3.10, I probably would not pitch back $0.90 as a tip (unlikely I'd tip at all), but at a counter service place on say, $9.10 I might well pitch back the full $0.90

OTOH, $3.68 is likely to get the remaining 32c pitched into a charity box or tip jar if they have one.

The 1-euro coin is close in size, and bimetalic. In a pocket invisibly, they feel the same. As compared to the Aussie $2 coin, though, they certainly don't feel like small change. (Japanese coins aren't super for that either, although the 500-yen coin, like the 5-CHF coin, is appropriately hefty.)

1 euro coin: 23.25x2.33mm, 7.5g
2 euro coin: 25.75x2.2mm, 8.4g

1 Pound coin: 22.5x3.15mm, 9.5g
2 Pound coin: 28.4x2.5mm, 12g

Much greater degree of differentiation between coins on the British system. Which is not to say the Euros are badly done; they're one of the better systems out there, and 1/2 euro coins are not readily confused with any of the smaller denominations (to my memory; I've spend a lot less time on the continent than in Australia, the UK, or various points in Asia)

When I lived in the city, I might well have given the loose coins to a beggar instead. *shrug*

Most Starbucks seem to have the idea of a "latte macchiato" rather than "cafe macchiato" . If they just hear "macchiato" you'll get the milky version.

Like you, I try to make my preference clear in those kind of places by asking for "espresso macchiato" and it's never misfired for me yet.

At least they've learned something from their bruising in Australia and now offer a half-decent flat white in the UK. They might have tip jars in the UK, can't say I've noticed. Our local coffee shop near work has a tip jar and I always chuck some change in there for the hardworking lasses who run it. But they bring you coffee out to you in proper cups (without rudely demanding your first name!), take orders by phone or text as you're walking towards the shop and all sorts of customer-friendly stuff like that.