Or is it perhaps more of an anecdote about NYC? ;)

I can reassure you that this wouldn't happen in many places in the U.S. or Canada.

So, if it's mandatory, is it included in the bill? Or are you being ironic?
It's weird really - elsewhere in the economy large groups get a discount, not a surcharge.

I presume now that 25% will be the norm, because there are always some "jerks" in a group who won't tip the full 20%, the 20% which came about because it's easier than 18%, the 18% which came about because some "jerks" don't pay the 15%, the 15% which came about because some "jerks" didn't pay the 10% .... I need to lie down now.

I'm sure there's a rationale behind it, but don't expect outsiders to understand it.

It wouldn't typically happen even in NYC, but it could potentially happen just about anywhere in the U.S. (I don't know about Canada.)

Last year two porters in the train station in Agra India demanded more money than I'd originally given them for carrying our bags, which I cheerfully handed over, having no list handy.

Back in the U.S.A, curb-side airport baggage checkers, e.g. LAS and cruise ship baggage handlers, e.g. MIA can be quite direct and, yes, obnoxiously pushy in this regard.

But a restaurant server running after a customer just about anywhere in the U.S. for leaving 15% rather than 20%?

Most anything could potentially happen just about anywhere in the U.S. or Canada. IMHO this scenario is unlikely. ;) YMMV

I always thought that porters charged a set fee rather than working for tips, i.e., you should negotiate a price before handing over your bags if you aren't willing to accept whatever the going rate is.

Running after a customer is unlikely, but I have seen servers verbally demand a higher tip, sometimes quite abusively, several times the US, everywhere from small towns to large cities.

Yup. It was about 5:00 a.m., there was no list posted in the station (as noted in my link) and I accept responsibility for being unaware of the best procedure (local customs) to follow.

It's really impossible to respond to your experiences other than to say I haven't. As I wrote YMMV. ;)

It is more work, at least at a class of restaurants good enough that you're trying to synchronize everyone getting their entree at the same time.

Larger parties also tend to occupy a table longer, and in some groups, tend to tip less -- because people underestimate their share of tax and tip, or potentially maybe sticker shock if one person is hosting.

(The former is from direct experience, not as a server, but trying to generate spend on cards: with larger groups of coworkers, I found that if I pass around the bill to have everyone figure out their share, it was rare to get shorted on the original bill, but nearly 100% that we'd end up short on the tip -- whether precalculated by the restaurant or not. Makes it not worth it, unless you've got friends who order in a close enough range of items to do the "OK, everyone pay $xx. )

Synchronising so everyone gets their meal at the main time, It's not rocket science is it? And it doesn't matter if you screw it up because you're on a guaranteed 20%. Let's not forget those big groups knocking more booze back and the 20% on that. That's a nice earner.

Perhaps that's because you always leave a generous tip rather than tying it to the quality of the service like I do?

Just a guess, I don't really know.

If you're opposed to the American/Canadian system of "voluntary" tips, wouldn't you be better satisfied by a service charge included in the bill service compris-style? :confused: Granted, in many if not most other countries the service charge is included in the menu price, but if you read on a menu that "a service charge of 18% is added for parties of six or more," isn't that a step in the right direction for you?

Ah, it didn't dawn on me that perhaps you were the recipient of the abusiveness. I thought you were referring to numbers of scenes you had witnessed of other diners being berated.

To answer your query, I'm a generous tipper by the standards of some and chintzy by the standards of others. I have brothers-in-law who will tip 25% for excellent service while I top out around 20%.

In comparison, we dined fairly often with my late Canadian father over the years in British Columbia and Washington State, and I never saw him berated, snubbed, or slighted for his habitual 10% tips. I was watching for any sign because that tip made me feel personally uncomfortable.

Maybe people in our favored corner are just a lot nicer than everybody else, but I doubt it. :)

Well it has happened both ways. At least twice (that I can think of) in the last few years, I have decided to leave a minimal tip of around 10% due to extremely poor service, and been stopped at the door by the server on the way out. One was near Los Angeles and one was in a small town.

I also saw a server (or manager?) lecture another customer once on tipping. I don't know if the reduction was justified or not, but this one seemed to be getting heated so we quickly paid our check and left.

As others have posted above, that does point up the irony that presents itself when a "voluntary" payment is considered a "right" by the employee, who may in fairness is getting a low wage which the tips are supposed to balance out.

I've certainly heard of such episodes, and it can even happen to Americans in Europe, IMHO when the person providing a service expects (demands?) a big tip because the tourist is an American. For example, I've experienced unpleasantness on two occasions - with taxi drivers both in Barcelona and Naples.

Fredd -

First, 86 the Hawaiian shirt and plaid Bermuda shorts.

Then tell them " Je suis Suisse, " or " Je suis Canadien. "

They will no doubt take you for a frugal peasant en vacances, and let you go with a shrug.

:D Merci mille fois! ^ En actuellement, je suis un citoyen américain et un citoyen canadien aussi.

Autre pays, autre coutume, n'est-ce pas?* So I'm burning the plaid bermudas tonight.

*When in Rome... which is why most of us are here, eh? ;)

I cannot believe how out of touch the public is in this regard, and this includes Flyertalkers too.

The tip isn't 10% or 15% or 20% or more. It's whatever the meal/situation/transaction warrants. Sometimes it's a flat dollar amount, unrelated to the bill (maybe I leave $5 after sipping a coffee for a while). Sometimes it's an amount related to the occasion... where the percentage may be also much higher. Other times it may be designed to be an insult based on the dining experience (food quality or service).

There is no standard. The amount to tip is determined by the payee.


Now, do you realize just how much money a server actually makes>?>?

Just for fun, I have started waiting tables again.
Yesterday I made over $100 on a lunch shift... and $40 bucks in wages.
Don't give me the sob story that these are poor 'starving students' . IT'S JUST NOT THE CASE. If I decided to wait full time, I'd be making as more than most professionals.

Re tipping rates: the sales tax rate in NYC (and many other large cities) is in the vicinity of 8.5%, so doubling the tax = 17%, was an easy way to compute the tip (and possibly over-tip when the rate was 15%).
A recent experience: The waiter, in error, placed my salad order late, and so the main course and the salad arrived at the same time..:td: He neglected to provide a steak knife (I had to request one from the server). I gave him a 15% tip (which was more than he deserved--a waiter is supposed to provide competent service). Question: I was thinking of attaching a note to the bill (and tip), noting why I had "under tipped" 5%--should I have done this?

Given that 15% is well within the normal range of variation, unless you were a regular there known to usually tip at the high end of the normal range of variation, no message was left by tipping at the low end.

While neither of those are on my list of disqualifications to competent (unless there's a sign that those are the rule and not the exception), if they are for you, letting the manager know is the right thing to do. Handling complaints of subpar service is a major part of their job.

No need for the note.

In the above situation, had you left 5%, the waiter would know EXACTLY why you left what you did.

In fact, this was the actual intent of tipping. If the waitperson regularly gets low tips for poor service, they have a very big incentive to improve their competencies.

Well, that's really the crux of the matter, isn't it - management is happy with the tipping culture and so is the wait staff. Given that, there is no impetus to change anything. Customers aren't going to revolt en masse so we're stuck with it.

And presumably not reporting it to the IRS, unlike most professionals.

It might be unlikely but it happened. She only chased me to the door (not down the road) but asked me if I was aware that the accepted tip amount was now 20% not 15.

This whole tipping thing is ridiculous. Which is why I am a flat tipper. I don't believe in paying a different amount based on service level. Why? If you go to an electronics store and the employees are super helpful, knowledgeable, and you find the perfect product do you pay extra for your satisfaction? Likewise if you go to an electronics store and there is no help to be found, and the few employees you do find are completely clueless and you have a miserable experience do you pay less?

No, in both cases you pay the exact same amount. Why should a restaurant be any different?

In the case of a great experience you will give that store your repeat business, recommend them to your friends, and give positive online reviews. In the case of a negative experience you either complain to the manager, or don't go back. Restaurants should be exactly the same because if you leave a very poor tip to a server they will just think you are a cheap jerk. The only way to address poor service is to take it up with a manager.

My tipping system I look at the pre tax total, take 20% of that, then round down to the nearest dollar. Should be good enough for a 15 - 18% tip in most cases, especially when dining by myself or one other person. I just consider it an unbundled service charge where I am directly paying the employee for their labor.

OTOH, you also have the option of taking your business elsewhere before purchasing something. If the electronics store is useless, you've got the option of driving on to the next one without giving them a cent (or just ordering online.)

In the case of restaurants, the consumer is committing to pay (or take the issue up with the manager why they shouldn't have to) by ordering, often before they know how good/bad the service will be.

(Could be worse; look at hotels - given the propensity for prepayment and non-refundable reservations, people often are committing to pay before they even see the physical condition of the property, and given online mapping errors, sometimes without knowing the actual location!)

I would have apologized and asked for the receipt back so I could change it. I would then change it to 0% and leave.

Then of course I would post this incident on Yelp.

YES, you have highlighted the problem. How are all the servers handling the tax man. This is the crux of the issue.

Don't get on my case, I am trying to change it.
I am posting this information. Information that is usually hidden from the public. It's like a 'code of secrecy'.

I would hope that by publicizing the information, we can
*inform people about how ridiculous amounts of money are being thrown around here.
*break stereotypes (such as, highlighting how much of a HUGE income stream it is)
*modify behaviour (really, if we're overtipping, we're overpaying)
*provide an incentive for governments to crack down on the tax free income (I did not create the system; Earning this INSANELY HUGE INCOME WITHOUT TAX is unfair to all other professions; Servers should pay tax on all their income, just as everyone else).

the problem with this logic is that the "customary" 18% large-party "gratuity" was around for many years. but you never had to calculate it; the restaurant always included it on the bill already (otherwise, if it's not on the bill, no one would pay it). by the way, 18% was common but not universal. many places used 15%.

the proletarian in me suspects that tip inflation is correlated to some kind of legalized wage theft. i can easily imagine a rule that allows a restaurant to pay a lower hourly wage if it claims that its servers get more tips. i emphasize that this is purely my imagination. but it makes sense to me because i've seen so many restaurants themselves endorse tip inflation, which i would otherwise expect to drive away customers. why would a restaurant promote something that superficially might hurt its sales, unless there was an unseen economic advantage?

I was in a high-end restaurant in the Caribbean earlier this year where they included a 10% service charge on the bill " designed for entire staff.Tipping to servers is discretionary. "

I called the owner/manager over and told him in a loud voice he was taking the piss and should either pay the 10% service charge to all his staff or pay them proper wages.

On principle I only ever leave a tip for wait staff if they've been good at their job - if they're rude, ignorant or just lazy I call the manager and explain exactly why I'm not leaving a tip.

I also ALWAYS hand the tip, in cash, directly and discreetly to the server to make sure if goes directly to them.

I never, ever let any restaurant staff treat me or my guests with anything other than politeness or common decency which is how I always treat the staff.

Otherwise, I push back my chair and lead everyone out of the door making sure we make quite a scene. Restaurants always hate that.You'd be amazed how often a previously snooty manager comes scuttling over doing a great impression of Uriah Heep.

Never let the tail wag the dog.

I find the US tipping culture quite bizarre

As an example take this scenario....

My husband, daughter and I ate dinner in a resort hotel in Colorado. Two courses each for the adults three for daughter, and a bottle of wine. The bill came to a little over $400 We were at the table for less than an hour, and the table could have been turned over three or more times during the evening.

My husband rounded the bill up to $500 as the service had been good ( but not exceptional), and our server looked quite upset at what he was given.

We also ate at an Applebee's where the bill was just under $100, and we left the server a $20 tip... They did just as much for us as the guy in the swanky hotel but she seemed delighted at her $20, while he was upset with around $90.

Take the resort hotel waiter say he got $100 in tips from each party he served - at a minimum each of his tables would give him $300/ night, and he was looking after 6 tables - a minimum of $1800 a night.....

Multiply that by a 5 day working week gives him tips of $9000 a week, and multiply that by a 48 week working year and the waiter gets $432,000 a year - just in tips for working a dinner service..... Add in lunchtimes and it could be a whole lot more.....

Just one word - WHY??? He is no more efficient than the Applebee's waitress who would get less than half of that if she was lucky and worked her socks off... And what would a teacher, or a soldier, or a nurse earn in comparison?

While I agree with your overall point and keep asking myself the same question, your math is a bit disingenious for a couple of reasons:

1) The waiter at the resort most likely shares the tip with other staff, making his personal cut smaller. The same might apply at Applebee's, but there are less support staff sharing the tip.

2) Six tables with three parties per table per night sounds very busy. It is highly unlikely that the restaurant does quite so well year around.

But assuming the waiter only makes one quarter of what you assume - that is still over 100 grand a year. I cannot imagine very many other jobs without any formal qualifications required (AFAIK) where you can make nearly as much money.

And the money angle aside, I keep wondering what is the reason for the expected (or, in many cases, mandated) tip amount growing from 15% to 20% or even higher. The price of restaurant meals has gone up with inflation, so why is serving the food these days 30% more valuable than it has traditionally been?

Cheers,
T.

In a sane world the fact that you paid $400 pre tip for an small meal and a bottle of wine should be enough to guarantee good service.

Even if we assume that your figures are way off and he serves half that number of tables and because of bill size he actually only averages half the tip you quote per table that would still mean he was turning over 100k in tips.

There is no justification for tipping anything other a flat sum tip for wine in a restaurant IMO - why should you pay 15,18,20 % whatever whether it's a £20 bottle of plonk or a £500 bottle of vintage claret - the work is pretty much identical - if the restaurant owner wants to reward staff for selling the expensive wine they can do that from the huge profit margin already on the wine (3-4x retail seems typical) but don't expect me to pay the commission with a huge tip.

You do realize that you are promoting tax evasion by doing this? You are also depriving other support staff, like cooks and dishwashers, of their mandated share of the tip.

It's also very odd. I've never seen anyone do this, and I would feel awkward and uncomfortable doing this to a restaurant server.

I'm having difficulty imagining why a server would be upset over a 22% (or whatever it came out to) tip. Absolutely no reason anywhere in the U.S. for that to happen, even in NYC (where 20-25% seems to be more the normal range). Perhaps he was upset over something else or you misread his facial expression?

FWIW, I'm beginning to change my perspective on tipping. I recently took a flightseeing tour in Kodiak, Alaska and found it stressful to try to figure out the tipping etiquette for our excellent pilot--something I didn't even think about until after we'd landed (too late to try to Google it or ask somewhere). I now understand the stress that foreigners feel in the U.S. when trying to deal with the myriad places that seem to expect tips.

You're assuming that the server won't report the tip.

In most cases that is an excellent assumption.

The IRS claims that cash tips are underreported by 84%.

OT perhaps but I'm well past accepting the IRS as a font of objective information. :p

Yeah, something seems a little off there, unless "a little over" was like $435-$440. Even there, $400 pretax, $437 after tax (8.5% here), $63 tip would be at the low end of the normal range ($60-$87, basically.)

$90 is $90. Why worry about what percentage of $400 it is? It still buys $90 worth of whatever. It's not like stores charge a percentage of what you have in your wallet.

The total bill (inclusive of tax) was $412 so the server's tip was $88 or to me as a Brit around £60. Sorry but to me that is a ridiculous amount of money for just taking the order and bringing to food to the table. Take the cost of the wine off we paid the same in a tip as having him sit down and join us at the table for a meal.

My other point - as well as looking at what $90 per table tip would translate to to in weekly or annual earnings, is the inequality of wages for people doing the same job..... The Applebee's lady performed just as well as he did (if not more so as she had a lot more tables to deal with), but she would have to serve 4 tables like ours to get close to what he got. He gets more just because he's lucky enough to work in a high end year round resort charging fancy prices, while she does exactly the job in a low cost chain.

I'm not against rewarding good service and have no problem with tipping per se, but the level expected in the US is ridiculous.

That's a generous but not out of line tip by most US standards, especially if it was somewhere with a low sales tax rate.

$62 (15% after tax) or even 15% before tax would be fine. If you were over 60, you could probably even get away with acting like 10% was still the standard; when he was still around, my father-in-law did.

Complaining to a patron about the level of a tip is never OK, but it's especially poor form if you're at the very high end of the expected range already.

Likely more than that; $100 is large bill at a casual dining place like Applebee's. OTOH, she has more tables, and the level of service expected at Applebee's is lower (even if in practice she did just as well.)

you just answered your own question.