Yup, the whole 'tip the tax' thing used to be how I did it. But now with the mobile credit card machines they use, where you enter the tip %, if you notice, the % goes on the whole bill (including tax) which I am guessing most people don't entirely think about - my guess is servers end up better off with these machines as with paper, you tip your % on the base (as you see it in front of you) but on the machine the % key puts it on the whole thing (make sense?) So now I do often 'tip the tax' acknowledging that 13% post tax is pretty close to 15% pre tax.

I've been using the tip % function on the machines lately, but have been mindful that the tip is on the whole bill.. so I enter a bit of a lower number to compensate for the tip and any takeout food.

The server doesn't see the % on the bill, just the tip amount.

But I agree its a bit misleading.

Fair perspective, but I think it also greatly depends on what kind of restaurant you work at. If I worked at a place that had a seven or ten course tasting menu, it would completely change the way I pace my tables. Because Americans in general tend to do more of the "dinner and a movie" thing as opposed to having the meal be the entirety of the evening's entertainment, I generally cater the speed of my service to that demographic. Obviously a veteran server can tell those tables that are in no rush and would in fact be put off for anything resembling a rush, and can customize the service accordingly. I would say 90% of tables at my restaurant are not looking to be there for more than two hours if they have a choice in the matter. Providing quick and efficient service is generally what my guests prefer and I do my best to offer it to them.

Concerning the "pre-bussing" (as it's known in the industry) of plates throughout the meal, I do my best to never make a special trip just to clear plates. I use some kind of segue (either checking on the meal or refilling a water) to eliminate interruptions to the best of my ability. It's not like I'm going to reach across the table to grab a Sweet N Low wrapper while someone is trying to reach a million dollar deal with a client. That said, even if I do clear plates at some point, I'm always going to do it completely silently to cause as little commotion as I can. Asking "are you still enjoying your plate" is as idiotic of a question as saying "Here's another Coke" when you set down a refill. Neither statement is required. If you're a smart server, you don't need to ask if someone is finished because you've either a) noticed the silverware in the "done" position, or b) been keeping an eye on the table so keenly that you know they haven't taken a bite in over ten minutes.

"Ideally" might not have been the correct word for me to use. As I mentioned in another post, unless the diner has stacked up things on the plate clearly indicating that he/she doesn't want it in front of him/her at that point, I will leave it be until the other diner has finished as well. Feeling rushed is as much of a server's oral/body language matter as it is actual steps of service. Slowing the pace of speech, walking quickly when away from the table but slowing movement when at the table are all ways to let my tables know that I am there for their convenience -- not the other way around. In the industry we call it "duck on a pond". On top everything is slow and serene, but underneath the water the legs are flapping about wildly.

Chris

So, back to service, type of restaurant, and tipping.

Question for you (or others) regarding tipping at buffets or limited service places:

What is the norm for a tip at a buffet in America, whether low end or high end? Working buffets was actually something which required a lot of attention as it was important to remove the plate as soon as a diner stood up to return to the buffet. It may not have required as much physical work ie carrying loaded plates, but required a lot of care and attention. Yet often it is perceived as the 'easiest' type of service. And often in European restaurants which have a buffet breakfast I am brought a hard boiled egg which has to be specially ordered, cooked, and brought from the kitchen, so there is service involved beyond serving myself.

The other scenario is a limited service place. Take for example a chain of conveyor belt sushi restaurants popular in Hawaii. I think that I 'over-tipped' recently because the extent of the service was filling a water glass, bringing a pot of tea, and tallying plates. Payment was at the counter at the exit.

So, what would be the 'acceptable' percentage of tip in these types of restaurants in America?

I said earlier that I was enjoying the discussion with Chris and some others about 'service'. But since you are concerned about your budget, and didn't seem to understand variances in tipping, I suggested that you read the thread about that specific topic, in an effort to be helpful. Apologies for trying to assist. :confused:

This is why I like restaurants in Japan.

They offer great service that puts most waiters and waitresses in the US and Europe to shame and they don't ask for tip; instead they even consider tipping as an insult. ^

Why can't the US be more like this?

That was part of my tipping dilemma the other day. I was in a Japanese restaurant, with Japanese staff, and it wasn't considered 'full service' but it was in the US so I was really confused as to what to tip. If the restaurant had been in Japan no issue. If had been a full service restaurant in America, no issue.

But I am curious to hear advice on what to tip in future there.

95% probably theyre paid at american rates (i.e. below minimum wage) , so you would need to tip the difference

Sadly, US "rules" apply when you're in the US no matter what the restaurant.

Conversely, Japan "rules" of no tipping apply in Japan, even if you're at a Denny's or Anna Millers in Japan. :D

But what percentage? See my question about buffets and not quite full service restaurants above.

Do you still tip 18-20% in this case?

This was a conveyor belt sushi/hot item place and the only service was water glasses and tea brought once. I tipped more than 20% by the way. But what is the recommended norm in America for this?

You paid too much. 10-15% would've been fine.



As for calculating tax, just download a Tip calculator app onto your iPhone or Android device. I pretty much just enter the tab, set the tip rate, round off to the nearest dollar and I'm out of there.

Alas, I don't remember the last time I ate at a buffet, so I can't comment specifically on the norm in the US. I'd say dropping your normal percentage by 5% is probably good. (So for most people, 10-15% tip)

Chris

15% tip for a self-service buffet? are you out of your mind?!

I generally tip at least 20% unless the service is lousy, but at buffets where server only delivers drinks, removes a few plates, and delivers the check, it's usually about $1/person.

Not used to tipping in that format in the US, and the last one wasn't a buffet.

But the total was also low - $10 per person. So 15% is $1,50 which isn't much more than kipper's suggestion.

If you want a system where people tip little or nothing, restaurants will have to pay their staff more than $2-3/hour. The restaurants would then have to raise their prices to compensate for the higher wages.

Your total cost would be the same. The "capitalist incentive" that is so engrained in American society would be removed from servers and their performance, and until the US develops a different ethic, wherein people do their best even if they are not working for a tip, things will not change.

The real question here is not whether or not you tip or how much, but how to get rid of this crazy system. I can’t believe any customer seriously thinks standard restaurant tipping is a good idea. I understand the why and the current expectation and when in the USA I try to confirm to this quaint custom as much as possible. Although this does give a bit of stress and the end of a meal or taxi journey or whatever and means that trips cost me more as I can’t expense tips (even though they are really required as part of the price).

I would have though the whole post-service tip system was the very antithesis of being a flyertalker. Tipping someone who gives you regular service from or at the start of a longer-term service relationship does fit with the FT ethos– here it is really a bribe to get additional things for a smaller consideration that the service is worth or or cheating the system slightly to maximize your experience. But paying more than you need to after you have received the service (so it won’t make a difference to the service you got), that’s like doing a price comparison and picking a more expensive rate or fare than you need to. Why would you want to pay more than you can get away with?

It could be argued that the whole culture of tipping improves service, rewarding good service and developing an expectation of tipping – however, this relies on others tipping well in general, so that you get a better experience, which you then validate with a tip. Taking the frequent flying analogy further, this is the same as relying on “kettles”, the bulk of the customer base, to pay more to effectively subsidize your travels. So the equilvalent to enjoying FFP perks for the minimum spend and getting the most use out of miles or $$ for tickets is not tipping irregular service staff and letting the average customer pay tips normally so you still receive good service. Just like airline staff don’t know you got super double gold titanium status from some cheap MRs or are flying international F because you filled out a credit card application, servers will not know you ain’t going to give them any extra money until long after you’ve had a satisfying meal.

Of course, it could be for some people tipping is really a form of showing off, like displaying your status on your luggage tags or hat, or just telling everyone in hearing how shiny for FFP card is and important you are – then by all means pay the extra for that moment of self-importance and smugness when you can lord it over your temporary servant, displaying how rich and generous you are.

Tipping sucks, doesn’t make any business sense to the customer, causes unnecessary stress and confusion (particularly to non-natives who are also left open to deliberate bullying/exploitation), allows some people and businesses to earn/make money without making a fair tax contribution on their income, and really doesn’t even promote good service as people reward mediocrity anyway. By all means, I think a system where you could recognize exceptional standards is good, but if it really is a required part of transaction, then include it in the price. I get that people are vocal about others not following the system in their country and sure - that is the system so people should follow. But defending this as a good system makes no sense at all.

It seems natural once you get to know it, but at first, keeping hold of the knife with your right hand and never setting it down actually kind of looks slightly uncouth, since it looks like you are so hungry you can't even take a break to put your utensils down. Someone who never sets his or her utensils down in the U.S. is regarded as an aggressive eater.

Maybe it's just evocative of this kind of image signifying a hungry person:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/...89_468x380.jpg

You still put the cutlery down on the edges of the plate between each mouthfull, but you pick both the knife and the fork up together for the next bite.

Are you kidding me? I could just as easily say why can't Japan be more like the US? Every culture has its idosyncracies. I was shocked when I saw people pushing and shoving each other getting on and off the trains and subway cars in Tokyo.

I was shocked when people on the elevator practically pushed me aside to get off ahead of me. In the US, that kind of behavior would be considered extremely rude. In the US most people let others get off first.

Why can't Japan be more like the US?

6'5" asian 260 lbs, I would be at home pushing and shoving.. thanks for the heads up:D

Generally I tip the same for buffets.. because the servers clear the plates, bowls and drinks so many times, I feel bad not tipping the going rate.

But the 'going rate' for buffets in North America isn't 15%, based on the responses on this thread. And it certainly isn't that in most of the rest of the world, which is why I asked what is the norm in North America.

I'm not going to quibble over 0,50 cents, which is the difference between 10/15/20 percent in my example, but it also wasn't a buffet. Next time I eat there I'll leave a dollar plus round up to the next dollar, which again on a $10 total is marginal.

I don't eat at buffets except for the ones in hotel restaurants (which tend to be relatively simple bread/cereal/yoghurt/jams/fruit and possibly eggs). Nor do I eat at budget, cheap food places such as Golden Corral, or the places where people overindulge on prime rib and lobster tails such as found on the giant brunch or dinner buffets in North America.

At the breakfast buffets where I do eat outside North America, I just round up to the nearest amount.

Thanks to those of you who replied re tipping at buffets in North America.

Which is why I commented that I would feel bad not tipping the going rate.. which is obviously not the norm.

I think rounding up to the nearest dollar doesn't seem right.. but it is outside of NA isn't it?

Don't hog up the elevator door and consider letting people getting off first before getting in? :confused:

I'd push and shove aside anyone if they're standing in front of the elevator too in the US or in Japan if they think they're entitled to get on without letting those trying to get off first. Not much different than honking the horn and yelling expletives when another car thinks they can just cut ahead of those in line at the cheapest gas station. "Get you're ****ing ... back in line like everyone else, a lot more people were here first you ****head." :D

Patience..... !

USA will be like Japan or many other countries.

US is barely a 350 year old country, rest of the countries are thousands of years old.

Don't you see a difference in US in the last 40-50 years ?

I don' t think we will have any choice !!!!!

Why would I be talking about dollars if I were a German dining in a restaurant in France? I did say that the restaurant was in America (and that it was a chain in Hawaii as well as a few on the mainland)

I'm not following the norm by not tipping 'the going rate'? But the 'going rate' ISN'T 15-20% outside the US. And the 'going rate' for buffets/limited service within the US also ISN'T 15-20%.

Question: Does anyone else think that I was wrong and tipped too low in my example? It was a kaiten sushi restaurant (I already listed the 'service' but will list it again: seat oneself at an open table, the 'server' brings tea/water, one selects items from the conveyor belt, and IF one wishes something specific asks the server. Payment is at the front counter after the 'server' tallies the amount of empty plates)

Total was about $8.60 USD. Did I undertip by paying $10.00? That is by my calculation 16.3%, more than what the 'going rate' appears to be for buffets in America (Sylvia, feel free to tell us again! :D ) I did what I stated earlier; rounded up to the next dollar, and added $1.

If anything, I learned from this thread that I may have been 'wrong' to tip as much as I did, but since the total bill was so low, I'm not overly worried about it. :)

Besides the issue of tipping for 'self service' or 'take out', there is also the issue of tipping on very low totals ie the percentage may be fair, but not the amount.

Tipping on take-out food is nonstandard. Delivery however warrants a gratuity (someone brings the food to your location). However, I noticed that the NY Times 'ethics' columnist yesterday suggested small tips on take-out food. Contrary to the NYT, I believe we are headed away from tipping in the US. The demise of cash and the rise of self-service are long-term trends that lead away from tipping.

The old US standards, which many of us learned from our parents, at least pre-1990 were: $1 per drink from a bartender; $1 per suitcase delivered by a porter; and 15% for a waiter serving you at a table in a restaurant. That's about it. Any other tipping is more related to rounding up to avoid change.

The one place I do tip in France for 'takeaway' is my motosushi delivery. Usually the total comes to about €18,90 so then I give a €20 if it's coming by motorcycle. If I go to pick it up in the local shop, I don't tip. Both major motosushi chains have online ordering, and one can repeat a previous order as well as pay online, so there is little human interaction other than the making of the food.

Because I tend to pay in cash, I'll round up. Still, the motorcycle riders generally scramble to offer me change, so I suspect that isn't the norm either.

I don't know that why we have to pay those, who already earning their wages. Why we have to pay extra for what we have already paid? The staff is rendering its services on salary/wages basis which are paid through customers payments. Its the owner's job to pay his staff. If anyone has sufficient he should donate it to the charitable institutions, homeless of victimized people, not to those who are already getting paid by the owners.

Interesting article on the fight between the servers and the owners

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...housetips.html

How about tipping for expensive dinners where i'm talking about small group of people eg 3 or 4 and spending 2-3 thousand on a meal? would tipping 17-20% still be normal in the uS?

We can all move to Japan. We don't tip and we get amazing customer service from a high class hotel down to McDonald's.
;)

The largest table I've ever personally waited on that did not have an gratuity applied was around $800, and they tipped 20%, so it's at least done by some.

Quick anecdote. I read somewhere, forget where, that Bill Gates took a friend's family out for dinner to celebrate the friend's son's graduation. Lots of expensive champagne was ordered. The bill was $12,000, and Mr. Gates wrote it off to an even $20K.

I wish I were working that night.

Chris

We actually had a lawsuit against one of my former employers for doing something similar.

According to the labor laws in my state (and others as well), tips can only be shared amongst those with direct face-to-face contact with the customer, and with no one in a supervisory position.

Part of our tip share was going to pay a service bartender in the kitchen (who never sees a customer) as well as a woman who HAD been a manager, but no longer could be one due to getting a DUI. In the state of Kansas, if you get charged with an alcohol-related crime, you can not serve, nor be in charge of anyone who serves, alcohol. So, they created a made up position for her, and she still did all of her managerial duties, just under a different heading. When we found out that the restaurant wasn't paying her and, in fact, she was getting a chunk of our tips, we raised hell and after several internal investigations throughout the company, about a dozen managers throughout the company were fired and they had to pay out a settlement of seven digits plus.

Not sure about the laws in Canada, but if the basis for that story were anywhere in the U.S., some heads would roll.

Chris

Because you HAVEN'T "already paid." You've paid a price the owner has set based on the assumption that you'd be tipping to supplement the sub minimum wage he's permitted by law to pay his employees.

I don't know why people have such a hard time understanding this simple concept. Eliminate tipping, require the restaurant owners to pay servers a fair wage, and they'll raise menu prices to cover the increased overhead. Then you'll all be whining about how expensive it is to eat out.

"Because you HAVEN'T "already paid." You've paid a price the owner has set based on the assumption that you'd be tipping to supplement the sub minimum wage he's permitted by law to pay his employees.

I don't know why people have such a hard time understanding this simple concept. Eliminate tipping, require the restaurant owners to pay servers a fair wage, and they'll raise menu prices to cover the increased overhead. Then you'll all be whining about how expensive it is to eat out. "

Nonsense. Explain why some restaurants charge, for example, $10 for a meat/potato dinner, and others charge 5 times that or more (ordered from the same suppliers). Or explain why I should tip a percentage of an expensive bottle or glass of wine, when it's the same work to bring it and pour it as the cheap glass/bottle.
I already have pretty much stopped going to restaurants in the US. Hate the nonsense of it costing me through the nose for usually mediocre service and mundane food, plus tax and tip. And don't get me started on the wine markups! It isn't fun anymore, it's just irritating.

Oh, I know I shouldn't get involved in a thread about tipping.

So on that logic it would be acceptable if I dine in a restaurant in LA where the minimum wage is $8/hr and spend $500 over 2 hrs to leave a tip of $16 if I have sole use of a dedicated server as the purpose of tipping is to make up the shortfall between what the employer pays and the minimum wage. That way I am certain that at least for the time period that I required service the server is earning the minimum wage plus whatever the employer pays - or is there some other purpose of tipping that has not been mentioned in your post?

I really hate the fact that a lot of shops put out a tip jar - what service should I be tipping for buying fresh produce?

I hate it also, I wish they would just bring a bill that said, "We expect you to pay this much" and be done with it.

Regarding the capitalist incentive that was referenced, I'm not sure how effective that is if the tips are shared among the staff.

I have been to an Indian restaurant that was, in effect, no bill and all tipping - order what you like, then pay what you like.

Just out of curiosity, I pose this question to the FT masses. If a local restaurant that you hadn't visited before advertised the fact that they didn't allow tipping and paid their staff a living wage, would you be more likely to visit the restaurant?

Or perhaps a better question. If there existed two franchises of the same restaurant, and one worked under the current "system" and one didn't allow tipping. At restaurant #1, a burger costs $10. At restaurant #2, a burger costs $13. Assuming everything else is the same (and they're the same distance from the house, yadda yadda yadda), would you prefer one restaurant over the other?

EDIT: Not trying to be snarky here either. I myself, as a server, think that tipping is stupid too. That said, if I don't make the same amount of money and the restaurant doesn't make the same amount of money, it'll never go away.

Chris