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Well, I don't tip 30% so the $13 is overpriced, but if the burger was $11.50, then yes, I'd opt for the place without tipping.
Originally Posted by JayhawkCO
(Post 18400299)
Just out of curiosity, I pose this question to the FT masses. If a local restaurant that you hadn't visited before advertised the fact that they didn't allow tipping and paid their staff a living wage, would you be more likely to visit the restaurant?
Or perhaps a better question. If there existed two franchises of the same restaurant, and one worked under the current "system" and one didn't allow tipping. At restaurant #1, a burger costs $10. At restaurant #2, a burger costs $13. Assuming everything else is the same (and they're the same distance from the house, yadda yadda yadda), would you prefer one restaurant over the other? EDIT: Not trying to be snarky here either. I myself, as a server, think that tipping is stupid too. That said, if I don't make the same amount of money and the restaurant doesn't make the same amount of money, it'll never go away. Chris |
I had an experience at an American restaurant recently where the waiter started asking very detailed questions about where we were from, etc. When we said we were living in Europe he got a deer in headlights look and asked if we had ever lived in the US. I wondered whether he might be worried that he wasn't going to get a tip.
Any Europeans ever experience this? I'm still not sure if I was right or not, but his mood definitely lightened when I said yes, we've lived in the US. |
Originally Posted by lancebanyon
(Post 18401542)
I had an experience at an American restaurant recently where the waiter started asking very detailed questions about where we were from, etc. When we said we were living in Europe he got a deer in headlights look and asked if we had ever lived in the US. I wondered whether he might be worried that he wasn't going to get a tip.
Any Europeans ever experience this? I'm still not sure if I was right or not, but his mood definitely lightened when I said yes, we've lived in the US. I guess it's cultural difference - but it doesn't make sense to have to tip for something that is 'complimentary' such as airport shuttle. |
Originally Posted by emma69
(Post 18401494)
Well, I don't tip 30% so the $13 is overpriced, but if the burger was $11.50, then yes, I'd opt for the place without tipping.
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Originally Posted by lancebanyon
(Post 18401542)
I had an experience at an American restaurant recently where the waiter started asking very detailed questions about where we were from, etc. When we said we were living in Europe he got a deer in headlights look and asked if we had ever lived in the US. I wondered whether he might be worried that he wasn't going to get a tip.
Any Europeans ever experience this? I'm still not sure if I was right or not, but his mood definitely lightened when I said yes, we've lived in the US. Just as there are people from North America who travel abroad and don't know the local custom, there are people from Europe who travel to America and don't tip. But since tipping at least something is more common these days in much of Europe, and people are more travelled and better informed, I believe that it tends to be an outdated stereotype. I also know many people who overtip when in America, either to offset the stereotype, or because they find rounding to 20% easier (and may not understand the tax implication in regards to the total tip) If any server however somehow indicates concern that I am ignorant, and won't tip him what he feels is the appropriate amount, it will colour my perception and may impact what I do choose to leave. This is very common practice in Walt Disneyworld, for example, with the excuse given that those from the UK (who make up a large percentage of non-American guests) are renowned for not tipping. :rolleyes: There is a 'suggested tip' line on the bill, which servers generally point out with great enthusiasm, or circle. Disney in fact introduced mandatory prepaid tips on many of their dining programs, as well as their Europe based cruises, to offset what they claim are lack of tips from 'foreigners'. Then again, Disney is one of the worst for reinforcing stereotypes and even encouraging their travellers to follow them (Witness Adventures by Disney) |
Originally Posted by TheAccidentalFlier
(Post 18394986)
I hate it also, I wish they would just bring a bill that said, "We expect you to pay this much" and be done with it.
Regarding the capitalist incentive that was referenced, I'm not sure how effective that is if the tips are shared among the staff. I have been to an Indian restaurant that was, in effect, no bill and all tipping - order what you like, then pay what you like. Another good example of how it's effective was our dinner on Saturday night. Mr. Kipper had a certificate for a free burger for his birthday at Red Robin. (Yes, Red Robin. Sometimes, it's a burger type of day). I have very low expectations for service at Red Robin. Saturday, we had a server who you could tell was doing her absolute best for all customers. We never had to wait on drink refills (she'd bring drink refills before we'd finished drinks), she kept offering additional french fry refills, and was generally very on top of her game. Our check was $15 after the certificate. We gave her $30 cash to cover the bill and told her to just keep the change. I'd think she learned that by doing her absolute best for customers, she'll earn more than by doing an ok job. FWIW, we also talked to the manager on the way out and told her how great the service was that night.
Originally Posted by JayhawkCO
(Post 18400299)
Just out of curiosity, I pose this question to the FT masses. If a local restaurant that you hadn't visited before advertised the fact that they didn't allow tipping and paid their staff a living wage, would you be more likely to visit the restaurant?
Or perhaps a better question. If there existed two franchises of the same restaurant, and one worked under the current "system" and one didn't allow tipping. At restaurant #1, a burger costs $10. At restaurant #2, a burger costs $13. Assuming everything else is the same (and they're the same distance from the house, yadda yadda yadda), would you prefer one restaurant over the other? EDIT: Not trying to be snarky here either. I myself, as a server, think that tipping is stupid too. That said, if I don't make the same amount of money and the restaurant doesn't make the same amount of money, it'll never go away.Chris I'd guess that at restaurant #1 in our scenario, good servers would want to work there, knowing that if they did really well, they'd earn more in tips. I'd guess that so-so servers, who didn't want to go above the minimum effort, would want to work at restaurant #2, where they knew they'd make a certain amount of money each night. My general experience has been that many servers who are very good at what they do earn a lot in tips, and therefore, wouldn't want to switch to a non-tipping system.
Originally Posted by nacho
(Post 18401896)
+1 I will feel more comfortable eating there. For me, going out to eat is to eat the food there, I don't care about service. I got hands and legs that I can fetch the food myself.
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Originally Posted by kipper
(Post 18402665)
Generally, no. I'd figure that the employees had no incentive to go above the minimum at a restaurant that doesn't allow tipping, but rather, paid everyone a living wage.
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"Generally, no. I'd figure that the employees had no incentive to go above the minimum at a restaurant that doesn't allow tipping, but rather, paid everyone a living wage."
And how is it different when they assume that they are virtually guaranteed a 15% to 20% tip, just by working in a restaurant? Because that's the state of affairs in most places now. |
Originally Posted by exbayern
(Post 18402734)
I'm curious if you feel that way as well in countries where that is the norm? Or just in the example given?
Originally Posted by sylvia hennesy
(Post 18402971)
"Generally, no. I'd figure that the employees had no incentive to go above the minimum at a restaurant that doesn't allow tipping, but rather, paid everyone a living wage."
And how is it different when they assume that they are virtually guaranteed a 15% to 20% tip, just by working in a restaurant? Because that's the state of affairs in most places now. |
Originally Posted by kipper
(Post 18402665)
Generally, no. I'd figure that the employees had no incentive to go above the minimum at a restaurant that doesn't allow tipping, but rather, paid everyone a living wage. I'd guess that at restaurant #1 in our scenario, good servers would want to work there, knowing that if they did really well, they'd earn more in tips. I'd guess that so-so servers, who didn't want to go above the minimum effort, would want to work at restaurant #2, where they knew they'd make a certain amount of money each night. My general experience has been that many servers who are very good at what they do earn a lot in tips, and therefore, wouldn't want to switch to a non-tipping system. For me, part of it is the service. If I want to fetch food and drinks myself, I'll either go somewhere that is fast food or buffet style, or will stay home and cook. Tip Restaurant, on the other hand, will always have a mix of good and not-so-good employees, and the customers "select" the best employees by paying them more. Unfortunately for the customers, they might get stuck with a not-so-good employee, and the saving grace for them is that the meal is cheaper. Personally, I would much rather go to No-Tip Restaurant, even if it costs 20% more (not 30%, that's a rip-off), because I find tipping to be outdated, stressful, stupid, and it contributes to income tax fraud. |
Originally Posted by kipper
(Post 18403001)
At least in the US, I see it working that way.
I've found that the good servers know they can earn more than 15-20%, and do what they can to earn it. Of course, that is an 'artificial' environment, with a large number of unskilled, poorly paid workers in large part supplemented by exchange program workers and/or college program workers. |
Originally Posted by Kevin AA
(Post 18403203)
No-tip Restaurant, with their higher wages, will get more applicants for server positions than Tip Restaurant. No-tip Restaurant can then select the best employees, and if they aren't up to par, they can be easily replaced.
Tip Restaurant, on the other hand, will always have a mix of good and not-so-good employees, and the customers "select" the best employees by paying them more. Unfortunately for the customers, they might get stuck with a not-so-good employee, and the saving grace for them is that the meal is cheaper. Personally, I would much rather go to No-Tip Restaurant, even if it costs 20% more (not 30%, that's a rip-off), because I find tipping to be outdated, stressful, stupid, and it contributes to income tax fraud. If you go to the same restaurant repeatedly, you can always select the best employees by requesting them. Let's use the scenario above, where Restaurant #1 pays only minimum wage. In PA, that is $2.83/hour. We'll say that Restaurant #2 pays $10/hour, even though full minimum wage is $7.25/hour, IIRC. Say that all servers have 4 tables/hour, and work 6 hours/shift waiting tables. Say each server does 2 hours of prep/side work. Base wages are $22.64 at restaurant #1, and $80 at restaurant #2. All that a server at restaurant #1 needs is for each table to leave $3 in a tip, and those at restaurant #1 will make more in an evening. If each table leaves 15% on a $40 check, that's $144 in tips. Why would good servers, who have a good idea that they'll pull in more than $10/hour in tips want to work at a restaurant that pays $10/hour, no tips? |
Originally Posted by emma69
(Post 18401494)
Well, I don't tip 30% so the $13 is overpriced, but if the burger was $11.50, then yes, I'd opt for the place without tipping.
Originally Posted by kipper
(Post 18402665)
Generally, no. I'd figure that the employees had no incentive to go above the minimum at a restaurant that doesn't allow tipping, but rather, paid everyone a living wage.
I'd guess that at restaurant #1 in our scenario, good servers would want to work there, knowing that if they did really well, they'd earn more in tips. I'd guess that so-so servers, who didn't want to go above the minimum effort, would want to work at restaurant #2, where they knew they'd make a certain amount of money each night. My general experience has been that many servers who are very good at what they do earn a lot in tips, and therefore, wouldn't want to switch to a non-tipping system. That said, when given the chance to put the "automatic gratuity" on large party tables, I pretty much always decline the option. I know I do a good job, and want to be compensated accordingly. I don't "rely" on the fall-back of guaranteed money. But I also know a fair amount of my fellow servers out there don't do that great of a job, and would be rewarded as such if they had the guaranteed option.
Originally Posted by Kevin AA
(Post 18403203)
No-tip Restaurant, with their higher wages, will get more applicants for server positions than Tip Restaurant. No-tip Restaurant can then select the best employees, and if they aren't up to par, they can be easily replaced.
Tip Restaurant, on the other hand, will always have a mix of good and not-so-good employees, and the customers "select" the best employees by paying them more. Unfortunately for the customers, they might get stuck with a not-so-good employee, and the saving grace for them is that the meal is cheaper. I understand that that number might seem quite high to some of you, but that's how it is at nicer restaurants (and sometimes more). There's essentially no way that the restaurant would ever guarantee me such a wage. The highest hourly employees at any restaurant I've ever worked in got paid around $22 an hour. So that would be probably be the best I could hope for. I'm not taking a 50% pay cut, and no good servers that I know would be willing to either. If any restaurant tried to incorporate such a policy, I can almost virtually guarantee that every server would quit. In most restaurants, you would essentially get Burger King level service, because the people that deliver said service would be the only people willing to work at those establishments. Also, the more that the restaurant has to pay their employees, necessarily the less they will want to have working at any given time. So if you think your server looks a little bit stressed tonight? Imagine if he had double the amount of tables because the restaurant was trying to aggressively slim down their labor budget. I worked at a very nice restaurant in Seattle where the minimum wage for servers was something like $7.60 an hour. You better believe on lunch shifts we ran bare bones staffs and it definitely showed in the service. I did the best I could, and I still got absolutely steamrolled regularly, and our clientele changed dramatically. Whereas we used to have a lot of business types, it was reduced more to the shopping crowd and tourists (essentially those with either a) a lot of time on their hands or b) had never been there before so knew nothing of the poor service that might be looming). I'm not trying to predict the apocalypse here, but I think there's a lot more that would go into any kind of change in "tipping systems" than people who have never done the job on any kind of professional level would understand.
Originally Posted by Kevin AA
(Post 18403203)
Personally, I would much rather go to No-Tip Restaurant, even if it costs 20% more (not 30%, that's a rip-off), because I find tipping to be outdated, stressful, stupid, and it contributes to income tax fraud.
Stressful? Really? It's stressful to add 20% to a check? Stupid? Yes. Income tax fraud? All of my credit card tips are automatically logged to the IRS. Any cash tips I have to claim at the end of the night before it allows me to clock out. There are far more failsafes put into the system than someone who hasn't done the job would realize.
Originally Posted by kipper
(Post 18403486)
Why would good servers, who have a good idea that they'll pull in more than $10/hour in tips want to work at a restaurant that pays $10/hour, no tips?
Chris |
Originally Posted by JayhawkCO
(Post 18403800)
Well, I chose the 30% markup because I would assume if a restaurant were to begin the "movement" that would be an answer to the OP, they would have to raise menu prices more than the equivalent of a 20% tip in order the keep the servers that they have. Most tables, at least at the restaurant I work at, tip 20% after tax. Additionally, we get that money that night, a huge incentive for me to do the job that I do. If I were to completely abandon a) the ability to earn more based on a good job and b) the instant gratification for working a shift by only receiving a bi-weekly paycheck, it would take more than paying me, say, $15 an hour to keep me. I make far more than that on my good nights. (And around that even on the worst of the worst nights).
For anyone that actually takes pride in their job, which in the restaurant industry unfortunately is not 100% of the employees (nor any industry for that matter), assuming the money is the same, guaranteed or non-guaranteed they should perform the job at the same aptitude. That said, when given the chance to put the "automatic gratuity" on large party tables, I pretty much always decline the option. I know I do a good job, and want to be compensated accordingly. I don't "rely" on the fall-back of guaranteed money. But I also know a fair amount of my fellow servers out there don't do that great of a job, and would be rewarded as such if they had the guaranteed option. I completely disagree with your statement insofar as the no-tip restaurant will not earn the server nearly as much money as the tip restaurant. Simply put, the restaurant will never pay me as much money as I earn in tips. I've tried to keep my own personal financial statements out of these tip threads, but I think it's time I have to divulge a little information. On a good night, I will earn around $50 an hour. $3 of that comes from the restaurant itself with the rest coming from tips (after including the deduction of 10-25% of my tips that I "tip out" to bussers, bartenders, etc. The amount is variable based on how much alcohol I sell and in what form). I understand that that number might seem quite high to some of you, but that's how it is at nicer restaurants (and sometimes more). There's essentially no way that the restaurant would ever guarantee me such a wage. The highest hourly employees at any restaurant I've ever worked in got paid around $22 an hour. So that would be probably be the best I could hope for. I'm not taking a 50% pay cut, and no good servers that I know would be willing to either. If any restaurant tried to incorporate such a policy, I can almost virtually guarantee that every server would quit. In most restaurants, you would essentially get Burger King level service, because the people that deliver said service would be the only people willing to work at those establishments. Also, the more that the restaurant has to pay their employees, necessarily the less they will want to have working at any given time. So if you think your server looks a little bit stressed tonight? Imagine if he had double the amount of tables because the restaurant was trying to aggressively slim down their labor budget. I worked at a very nice restaurant in Seattle where the minimum wage for servers was something like $7.60 an hour. You better believe on lunch shifts we ran bare bones staffs and it definitely showed in the service. I did the best I could, and I still got absolutely steamrolled regularly, and our clientele changed dramatically. Whereas we used to have a lot of business types, it was reduced more to the shopping crowd and tourists (essentially those with either a) a lot of time on their hands or b) had never been there before so knew nothing of the poor service that might be looming). I'm not trying to predict the apocalypse here, but I think there's a lot more that would go into any kind of change in "tipping systems" than people who have never done the job on any kind of professional level would understand. Outdated? Yes. Stressful? Really? It's stressful to add 20% to a check? Stupid? Yes. Income tax fraud? All of my credit card tips are automatically logged to the IRS. Any cash tips I have to claim at the end of the night before it allows me to clock out. There are far more failsafes put into the system than someone who hasn't done the job would realize. Ding ding ding. Chris Even in North America there are places where you don't tip the staff (private members clubs for example), and the service given in these places is incredibly good, certainly a notch above the waiters in may of the other restaurants in town. In terms of managing money, I've been in jobs where I get the money when I do the work (freelance teaching for example) and where I get a monthly pay check, and various weekly / bi-weekly methods in between. You soon adjust to it, it just becomes the norm. I personally wouldn't care if I got paid the same day, or bi-weekly, after all my biggest bills (mortgage etc) are not daily. |
If the argument is that servers will only provide good service if they are given tips as incentices, then why should this only apply to servers?
Does it mean that customer service representatives should be tipped to encourage them to really try to help you? Or that you should tip school teachers, dentists, or any other employees that happen to be facing customers? For all these other professions, if the employee doesn't do his job well, he will eventually be replaced by someone better - why should this be any different for servers? |
"Let's use the scenario above, where Restaurant #1 pays only minimum wage. In PA, that is $2.83/hour. We'll say that Restaurant #2 pays $10/hour, even though full minimum wage is $7.25/hour, IIRC."
Huh? The PA minimum wage is the same as the federal minimum wage. |
Originally Posted by nacho
(Post 18404185)
If the argument is that servers will only provide good service if they are given tips as incentices, then why should this only apply to servers?
Does it mean that customer service representatives should be tipped to encourage them to really try to help you? Or that you should tip school teachers, dentists, or any other employees that happen to be facing customers? For all these other professions, if the employee doesn't do his job well, he will eventually be replaced by someone better - why should this be any different for servers?
Originally Posted by sylvia hennesy
(Post 18404348)
"Let's use the scenario above, where Restaurant #1 pays only minimum wage. In PA, that is $2.83/hour. We'll say that Restaurant #2 pays $10/hour, even though full minimum wage is $7.25/hour, IIRC."
Huh? The PA minimum wage is the same as the federal minimum wage. |
Has anyone who has visited an American chain in both the US and in Canada seen a marked difference in the level of service received?
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One thing I've noticed that in some cheap restaurants and mini bars, the staff is not treated well. they are hired on very low wages and no extra benefits are given to them as compared to star rated restaurants so they beg for tip as an incentive for them. Consequently if you are getting meal and services on very cheap rates than its not bad to encourage the staff as well.
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I hate the tipping system and try to avoid going to restaurants where they expect a tip. I don't tip hotel maids or buffets.
However, I'm happy to make an exception for a business trip. My employer allows us to expense tips, including hotel maids. Half the time I'm on the road anyway, so in reality I do tip a lot, but it's all OPM. |
"In PA and in many other states, those who earn tips, in addition to a wage, can be paid a lower minimum wage"
That was kind of a "duh" kipper; my point was that poster was comparing apples and oranges. In this economy, there is no problem getting people to work for minimum wage. I suspect that many wait people in low price places, especially those who work slow shifts, would prefer the fed. minimum. |
Originally Posted by kipper
(Post 18404703)
In the US at least, it's that those who are servers know they receive tips as incentives, while those who aren't servers know they won't.
In PA and in many other states, those who earn tips, in addition to a wage, can be paid a lower minimum wage, as it is assumed that the tips will make up for the difference. Servers earn $2.83/hour, minimum wage, figuring that tips will make up the difference. |
Originally Posted by exbayern
(Post 18404753)
Has anyone who has visited an American chain in both the US and in Canada seen a marked difference in the level of service received?
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Originally Posted by sylvia hennesy
(Post 18410288)
"In PA and in many other states, those who earn tips, in addition to a wage, can be paid a lower minimum wage"
That was kind of a "duh" kipper; my point was that poster was comparing apples and oranges. In this economy, there is no problem getting people to work for minimum wage. I suspect that many wait people in low price places, especially those who work slow shifts, would prefer the fed. minimum.
Originally Posted by emma69
(Post 18410348)
I was under the strong impression that if the tips didn't make the salary up to minimum wage, the restaurant had to make it up - that is, no one works for less than minimum wage.
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Originally Posted by emma69
(Post 18404128)
I think there are a few, myself included, on this thread who have worked in the service industry in places outside of North America, and it is a touch insulting to suggest that a non-tipping environment results in Burger King type service. Thousands of servers work every day without any tips, from family dining, through to Michelin starred restaurants across the world. And I certainly never ran at a bare bones level (odd days of staff sickness aside).
Originally Posted by emma69
(Post 18404128)
In terms of managing money, I've been in jobs where I get the money when I do the work (freelance teaching for example) and where I get a monthly pay check, and various weekly / bi-weekly methods in between. You soon adjust to it, it just becomes the norm. I personally wouldn't care if I got paid the same day, or bi-weekly, after all my biggest bills (mortgage etc) are not daily.
Also, one of the perks of only getting paid $3 an hour is that my employer doesn't care THAT much about overtime. When I work more than forty hours, I get something like $5.50 an hour (it's a different calculation than straight time and a half), so it's not a dramatic departure from what I was getting paid. So, when I go on big trips (such as the 1.5 month one I just got back from), I work 60-70 work weeks leading up to the trip to save up. If I instead got paid $20 an hour and didn't get tips, there's no way my employer would let me work that much overtime.
Originally Posted by kipper
(Post 18410987)
So, if one earns $7.05/hour after tips one evening, the restaurant must contribute $0.20/hour for that shift.
Chris |
Originally Posted by JayhawkCO
(Post 18411246)
Didn't mean to insult. But, I will ask, how often do you get good customer service from someone that has a job paying near minimum wage (in the US)? I'm not saying it'll NEVER happen, but the likelihood is much lower than if someone had the skill set for job paying around $20 an hour or better.
Since the subject is eliminating tipping, why do you think that the non-tipping culture can work outside the US, but not within the US? (Putting aside the logistics of actually switching to such a culture) Do you believe that servers in high end restaurants in Europe are making mininum wage? I can assure you that it is seen as a professional career, not the view often taken in America where serving is a stop-gap position or for the unskilled worker. |
Originally Posted by JayhawkCO
(Post 18411246)
It's actually based on a week, not a shift. Which sucks worse. I've worked patio shifts at my current restaurant where it rained but had a chance to clear up so they didn't send us home. I walked out three hours later with $0 and the restaurant was under no obligation to pay me anything because my other shifts averaged it out.
Chris |
Originally Posted by exbayern
(Post 18411561)
I was enjoying the discussion but to be honest I didn't respond to your last post because I did find it put me off (in an effort to be pleasant I'll use that phrasing)
Since the subject is eliminating tipping, why do you think that the non-tipping culture can work outside the US, but not within the US? (Putting aside the logistics of actually switching to such a culture) Do you believe that servers in high end restaurants in Europe are making mininum wage? I can assure you that it is seen as a professional career, not the view often taken in America where serving is a stop-gap position or for the unskilled worker. As to your question, I'll be honest. I don't really know why it doesn't work in the U.S. I think it might be BECAUSE the job isn't viewed in high regard here. In Europe, as you mentioned, the job is viewed as a career, and I'm sure the nicer restaurants pay their servers a wage that is worthy of a career. In America, even the management of the restaurants view us as a dime a dozen. So they're unlikely to ever pay us a wage that is commensurate with having a career. Because of this fact, the talent pool that restaurants draw from is necessarily weakened (since there are far less people willing to do the job due to its lack of career status, not to mention having to deal with the American public ;)) and only the best servers are worthy of making a career-type wage. So now what you're left with is a select few that will do a good job just because it's the right thing to do, and a lot of people who are doing the job just because they can't do much else, and that batch, is the "Burger King" level service that I'm talking about. Given that talent pool, if we eliminated tipping, that majority bunch that doesn't take much pride in their job would be even less motivated to provide good service (and that's tough to demotivate them even further). I know this doesn't fully answer the question, but this is my feeble attempt to try to explain what I think would happen if you eliminated tipping in the current restaurant culture here in the U.S. Chris |
Today I had a revelation -- the tipping system is essentially making the servers and bartenders commissioned workers. Now I can see why there is such resistance to switching over to a no-tip system. No one who works in sales would trade a job that brings in up to $50/hour for a flat hourly wage, unless the rate was really high, which businesses would probably not pay.
Think about it, do you tip at a furniture store? No! Then why are the workers so attentive to the customers (instead of just standing at the cash register waiting for people to say "I want this and that")? It's because they get a low hourly rate plus a commission for selling the merchandise. But the customer doesn't have to determine how much that commission is. That is between the workers and management and it works just fine. So how about this: at No-Tip Restaurant, the employees make an hourly wage plus a % of sales (for example, $9.00/hour plus 12% of sales). Raises in hourly wage and sales % are available for the better workers. For the bartenders, if a % doesn't make a lot of sense, pay per drink (e.g., $1 for a beer and $2 for a mixed drink). Instead of charging $3 for a beer and expecting the customer to give a dollar to the bartender, just charge $4 for the beer and add a dollar to the bartender's paycheck. |
Originally Posted by Kevin AA
(Post 18419671)
Today I had a revelation -- the tipping system is essentially making the servers and bartenders commissioned workers. Now I can see why there is such resistance to switching over to a no-tip system. No one who works in sales would trade a job that brings in up to $50/hour for a flat hourly wage, unless the rate was really high, which businesses would probably not pay.
Think about it, do you tip at a furniture store? No! Then why are the workers so attentive to the customers (instead of just standing at the cash register waiting for people to say "I want this and that")? It's because they get a low hourly rate plus a commission for selling the merchandise. But the customer doesn't have to determine how much that commission is. That is between the workers and management and it works just fine. So how about this: at No-Tip Restaurant, the employees make an hourly wage plus a % of sales (for example, $9.00/hour plus 12% of sales). Raises in hourly wage and sales % are available for the better workers. For the bartenders, if a % doesn't make a lot of sense, pay per drink (e.g., $1 for a beer and $2 for a mixed drink). Instead of charging $3 for a beer and expecting the customer to give a dollar to the bartender, just charge $4 for the beer and add a dollar to the bartender's paycheck. The premise of this thread is how to end tipping, not to defend the practice. |
Originally Posted by Kevin AA
(Post 18419671)
Today I had a revelation -- the tipping system is essentially making the servers and bartenders commissioned workers. Now I can see why there is such resistance to switching over to a no-tip system. No one who works in sales would trade a job that brings in up to $50/hour for a flat hourly wage, unless the rate was really high, which businesses would probably not pay.
Think about it, do you tip at a furniture store? No! Then why are the workers so attentive to the customers (instead of just standing at the cash register waiting for people to say "I want this and that")? It's because they get a low hourly rate plus a commission for selling the merchandise. But the customer doesn't have to determine how much that commission is. That is between the workers and management and it works just fine. So how about this: at No-Tip Restaurant, the employees make an hourly wage plus a % of sales (for example, $9.00/hour plus 12% of sales). Raises in hourly wage and sales % are available for the better workers. For the bartenders, if a % doesn't make a lot of sense, pay per drink (e.g., $1 for a beer and $2 for a mixed drink). Instead of charging $3 for a beer and expecting the customer to give a dollar to the bartender, just charge $4 for the beer and add a dollar to the bartender's paycheck. The one challenge I was able to come up with would be that the current system prevents servers from being overly aggressive. The pushy used-car salesman can be pushy because he's paid a percentage of the profit he brings in to the dealership. If he can bully you into signing on the dotted line even though you may not be all that satisfied with the purchase, he still makes his cut. This leads to the sleazy, pushy reputation of many people in sales. On the other hand, at a restaurant, the waiter is effectively a salesman motivated (in some small way) to upsell you by adding on appetizers, soups, salads, drinks, and deserts. However, you hold the ultimate trump card: if you feel the upselling was a bit too pushy and uncomfortable, you can lower your tip, and the waiter-salesman can actually make less money than had he not bullied you into buying that salad, cake, and fancy mixed drink. Think if you determined the commission of the used-car salesman. If you felt like you were pushed too hard, you could lower the commission of the salesman. This would have the effect of reducing the salesman's pushiness in the future, since he would know that he stands to actually earn less money by leaving you penniless and dissatisfied than maybe if he cut you a better deal but you were happy about the price you paid and the service you received. Car salesmen would be the nicest, most pleasant people to work with. I can deal with pushy salespeople in a place where I expect to be sold, but when I'm out to dinner, I'd rather a lighter touch be employed, so I think the current system works out nicely. FWIW, as I think I've mentioned upthread, I tend to generally be an easy-to-please diner and am usually very happy with the service I receive (consistent with the level of service expected at a given class of establishment--of course I expect more at a place like Daniel or--the place I received the best service ever--Del Posto), so I generally find myself tipping right around 20%, rounded up or down to the nearest dollar. It's rare that I consciously go below that amount. Yet this week (in the span of a couple of days), I experienced both mediocre, inattentive service wherein I consciously tipped exactly 15% as well as (just tonight) excellent service (a beer sampler during happy hour--an amazing 9 five-ounce pours for the whopping sum of $6, and we spent a good 1.5 hours enjoying the music and ambiance) wherein I consciously tipped well north of 20%, since our waitress's time and service felt worth much more than $1.20. |
Very well said jackal. Much better than apparently I've been able to convey.
Chris |
Originally Posted by JayhawkCO
(Post 18411246)
Didn't mean to insult. But, I will ask, how often do you get good customer service from someone that has a job paying near minimum wage (in the US)? I'm not saying it'll NEVER happen, but the likelihood is much lower than if someone had the skill set for job paying around $20 an hour or better. Same reason you get better service at Morton's than Applebee's. The servers make more money at Morton's so the cream rises to the top.
I meant to bring up the point that the "instant gratification" of the job is a perk that can't be made up for by going to a paycheck system. Let's say I get a flat tire and have to shell out a couple hundred bucks to pay for a new one. Let's say that eats up a good chunk of my liquid cash. (And that isn't a pun for drinking, but very well may be for some :D) The perk of my job now is that I can pick up a dinner shift the next night and make a good chunk of that money back. If we went to a non-tipping paycheck system and I didn't get any of that money until ten days later, that'd be one perk down the toilet for me. Also, one of the perks of only getting paid $3 an hour is that my employer doesn't care THAT much about overtime. When I work more than forty hours, I get something like $5.50 an hour (it's a different calculation than straight time and a half), so it's not a dramatic departure from what I was getting paid. So, when I go on big trips (such as the 1.5 month one I just got back from), I work 60-70 work weeks leading up to the trip to save up. If I instead got paid $20 an hour and didn't get tips, there's no way my employer would let me work that much overtime. It's actually based on a week, not a shift. Which sucks worse. I've worked patio shifts at my current restaurant where it rained but had a chance to clear up so they didn't send us home. I walked out three hours later with $0 and the restaurant was under no obligation to pay me anything because my other shifts averaged it out. Chris The reason you get better service at higher end restaurants is little to do with earnings (in fact, the opposite, as a mediocre server at Morton's could earn more without trying than someone working hard at Applebee's simply because of menu pricing and this 'automatic tip x%' culture), it is to do with the culture and tone set by management, training provided, and ongoing service management. Does a manager at Applebee's really give much of a carp about the service standards? Probably not, and that is why they are a manager at Applebee's and not Morton's. The place I managed wasn't top of line, it was solidly in the middle, type of food / pricepoint wise. But the service was higher end, because we hired people who cared, and management really cared, spending moneyb on 'mystery customer' visits, cross training (so the server would know how the dish was prepared because they had worked in the kitchen for a stint etc), and the company ethos was 100% consumer driven. Another unrelated company manager told me they loved hiring our ex-staff because they had such good training. The majority of staff were on minimum wage (we employed mainly university students and part time parents who liked the hours we could offer around school hours etc, and many of the parents were 'career' workers, having been there for years.) The instant cash 'perk' can be got around by having a reserve account for emergencies etc. or, as some prefer to do, by having a credit card. Again it is a mindset shift from 'student beer money work' to 'career' - if you treat the job as a salaried career, you act just as any other worker does in planning bills etc. around pay cheques. The cash-to-hand mindset is part of what people are saying about the tipping culture. Peversely, if you remove the instant gratification, the desire to do an overall good job rather than only do a good job because you see instant results sets in. We would pay time and a half overtime for people covering vacation etc. if that was the best way (whilst we didn't aim for it, sometimes with sickness etc. it is unavoidable) but really, I wouldn't want one of my servers working 70 hour weeks - as the quality of service would most likely decline. Good for the server, but not for the business - I saw it myself when I had to cover shifts - I certainly wasn't on my A game 16 hours after I got to work. Functioning, yes, A game, not even close. |
Originally Posted by emma69
(Post 18424229)
I do get good service in the US, from the shop assistant in Macy's who trawled through piles of jeans in the stock room to find the exact ones I wanted, the cinema attendant who helped find a booster seat, servers in the food court who were happy to change things about the meal to accommodate diatary preferences / fussy child eaters, transit workers happy to provide directions, dry cleaner who 'fixed a couple of things that needed doing as well' with no additonal charge, etc etc. People take pride in their jobs, and I think most people are human first, and like helping others if they can.
Originally Posted by emma69
(Post 18424229)
The reason you get better service at higher end restaurants is little to do with earnings (in fact, the opposite, as a mediocre server at Morton's could earn more without trying than someone working hard at Applebee's simply because of menu pricing and this 'automatic tip x%' culture), it is to do with the culture and tone set by management, training provided, and ongoing service management. Does a manager at Applebee's really give much of a carp about the service standards? Probably not, and that is why they are a manager at Applebee's and not Morton's. The place I managed wasn't top of line, it was solidly in the middle, type of food / pricepoint wise. But the service was higher end, because we hired people who cared, and management really cared, spending moneyb on 'mystery customer' visits, cross training (so the server would know how the dish was prepared because they had worked in the kitchen for a stint etc), and the company ethos was 100% consumer driven. Another unrelated company manager told me they loved hiring our ex-staff because they had such good training. The majority of staff were on minimum wage (we employed mainly university students and part time parents who liked the hours we could offer around school hours etc, and many of the parents were 'career' workers, having been there for years.)
Originally Posted by emma69
(Post 18424229)
The instant cash 'perk' can be got around by having a reserve account for emergencies etc. or, as some prefer to do, by having a credit card. Again it is a mindset shift from 'student beer money work' to 'career' - if you treat the job as a salaried career, you act just as any other worker does in planning bills etc. around pay cheques. The cash-to-hand mindset is part of what people are saying about the tipping culture. Peversely, if you remove the instant gratification, the desire to do an overall good job rather than only do a good job because you see instant results sets in.
My house burned down last year, and while insurance paid for a great amount of my belongings, it didn't pay for everything. Being able to work more and get money right away definitely helped me rebuild my life more quickly.
Originally Posted by emma69
(Post 18424229)
We would pay time and a half overtime for people covering vacation etc. if that was the best way (whilst we didn't aim for it, sometimes with sickness etc. it is unavoidable) but really, I wouldn't want one of my servers working 70 hour weeks - as the quality of service would most likely decline. Good for the server, but not for the business - I saw it myself when I had to cover shifts - I certainly wasn't on my A game 16 hours after I got to work. Functioning, yes, A game, not even close.
Chris |
Originally Posted by emma69
(Post 18424229)
People take pride in their jobs, and I think most people are human first, and like helping others if they can.
|
Don't know if anyone has posted this already (since I'm not going to read this entire thread) but here is an article citing a study saying that there is little, if any, correlation between tips and quality of service.
"While people claim in surveys that they tip almost exclusively based on the level of service, field studies in actual restaurants, such as those conducted by Michael Lynn of Cornell, find that better service is only partially correlated with bigger tips. A step up on a 1-to-5 rating scale of customer satisfaction translates into just a small increase (say, from 15 to 16 or 17 percent of the check)." http://www.smartmoney.com/spend/fami...1301325538049/ I find this to be quite believable. Most people tip out of habit, and they tip the same percentage each time based on what they think is appropriate. Only in extreme cases do people adjust the tip based on service. |
Originally Posted by cbn42
(Post 18427307)
Don't know if anyone has posted this already (since I'm not going to read this entire thread) but here is an article citing a study saying that there is little, if any, correlation between tips and quality of service.
"While people claim in surveys that they tip almost exclusively based on the level of service, field studies in actual restaurants, such as those conducted by Michael Lynn of Cornell, find that better service is only partially correlated with bigger tips. A step up on a 1-to-5 rating scale of customer satisfaction translates into just a small increase (say, from 15 to 16 or 17 percent of the check)." |
I actually love this topic/debate.
Here are my thoughts/experiences. 1. I will sometimes tip without doing the whole percentage calculation thing. Overtip in some cases when the service was great and they were super attentive(not to the point of annoyance) but to ensure we were well taken care of. 2. One time, I overhead a table of 5 or 6 leaving and the young waitress say, "I dont know what happened, I was nice and took care of them and they left me (it was either a few dollars or nothing at all I dont remember). So I actually got mad. I then asked her if I did in fact here it right. She said yes they didnt tip or tipped low. I said dont worry. I got your tip for them. Not being a big shot. But I have no problem righting someone else's WRONG. 3. Another time, maybe two times, the waiter/waitress was rude and not attentive and I left NOTHING. I didnt feel bad about it at all. PS. I have had some waiters that "fish" for ALOT more than the standard tip. Which I didnt appreciate and just looked at them and left. |
I have been trying something the last few weeks that I feel works great for sit down restaurant tipping, at least in the US.
I tip 20% no more no less. I don't view it as a tip anymore I view it as a mandatory 20% service charge, rounded to the nearest dollar, no different than paying the mandatory sales tax only I have to add it on the recept myself. Absolutely incredible service, 20%, absolutely horrible service, 20% (although I am not likely to return anytime soon if ever) It has been great. Went out to a local sports bar earlier this week for a burger and a beer and had a quite enjoyable experience. No longer was I concerned with and judging every little thing about my server to try to come up with some stupid percentage based on a million different little factors as to why or why not they deserve some percentage. Ordered my burger and a beer, she did her job, what else can I say? Bill was like, $11.50 something like that (pre tax of course, never tip on the tax is my rule) so I did the math in my head. 20% of 11.50 is what? About 2.30, 2.40 something like that? I rounded to the nearest full dollar and left a 2.00 tip. No wasting my time thinking up what she did or didn't do right or what I was or was not happy with and trying to come up with some stupid percentage to represent my exact level of satisfaction. Just paid my 20% service charge and went on my way. Now I have had bad service at this place semi-recently. Food came out lukewarm and she took forever to bring me another beer, however the service earlier this week was great. I will continue using my method now from now on. The occasional off night, I am fine with that, if the food or service is consistenly bad however I simply just will not go back. I am just making it easier on myself now to expect a 20% markup on the menu prices in all sitdown restaurants. No more concerning myself with details. Now tipping taxi drivers, porters, airport shuttle vans, etc I absolutely hate. That is their job. At least with servers they are paid less than minimum wage so they need the tips to make it up, but I hate tipping the above positons. On my personal travel I drive my own car to the airport and take public transportation at my destination whenever possible so I avoid interacting with people expecting a tip as much as humanely possible, however when I do interact with those people I tip out of pressure and guilt. Luckily though for work when I pack a bag that needs to be checked and prefer to take the shuttle I tip two dollars each way, one for loading my bag and one for a good, friendly ride. Or 10% of the fare for a taxi as tips are a reimbursable expense, within reason, for me. I don't mind tipping waitstaff (or paying the 20% service charge as I now call it), but I wish the expectation of tipping all other professions went away. I don't tip the cashier that rings up my items at a store for doing their job, so why should I tip a taxi driver for doing their job? One thing I absolutely can't stand is tip jars at fast food or carry out places. I have even heard of them appearing at gas stations. Unbelievable. |
You guys realize there's a "tip calculator" app for both the iPhone and Android, right? :confused:
I just have my tip calculator set at "12%" and "round total" to nearest dollar. Enter bill amount: $12.47 Tip calculates to: $1.53 <- write this amount to credit card receipt Total bill: $14.00 <- write this total amount to credit card receipt Sign |
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