Friendly moderator note:

I have tried to keep a light hand on this thread, despite the fact that a thread on FlyerTalk will probably not, in fact, end the practice of tipping.

However, several posts became unnecessarily personal or have been trending toward political characterizations and argumentation better suited for the OMNI/PR forum.

I have deleted a number of posts that were off-topic, snarky, or unduly personalized.

If there is anything more that is civil, thoughtful, and respectful on the topic to be said, feel free. Otherwise, this thread may have to be closed.

Just a, uh, tip, for all :)

cblaisd
Moderator, Dining Buzz

Thanks cblaisd.

I'm not sure if I've told this before on FT, but a friend of mine used to deliver pizza a few years back, at a place that charged for delivery. Every time someone tried to tip him, he'd (literally) yell at them that it's ridiculous, they're paying so much, no reason to pay any more, etc... some customers tipped anyway.

Have to agree..

But on the other hand, I'm quite surprised with the food costs in comparison to other hotels we frequented during this trip. For example, Fairmont Kea Lani charges $34 pp for their breakfast buffet which we attended everyday.. child is $15. We just had a character breakfast for $32 per adult and $16 per child. Anyday of the week, I'll take the character breakfast (even without the characters) over the Fairmont Kea Lani breakfast buffet.. which btw was the same spread as Hyatt Regency Maui, but at HR Maui, its only $25.99 pp.

At Aulani, you can get shaved ice with three flavors, condensed milk, and ice cream on the bottom of the bowl for $5.25. A bowl of frozen yogurt ice cream for $4. At Kea Lani pool side, a milk shake is $8. At Grand Hyatt Kauai, a milk shake is $10. Pool food at Aulani is relatively inexpensive compared to Fairmont Orchid. A burger is $14, chicken strips is $9.95, kids meals are all $7.. try about double at the Fairmonts, and the Grand Hyatt Kauai.

Dined at Ama Ama at Aulani today, and the lunches were fine dining exquisite.. about $19/$21 for the entrees.. ocean front. At the Fairmonts and Hyatts.. Try about $10 at least more per entree for lunch. Had the specialized Donburi and Soba noodle salad local lunch plate.. ymmmm.

With these prices, I was more than happy to tip 18%. The kids meals at Aunty's Beach House for the kids was only $8.55 with tip. Extremely inexpensive and surprising for kids meals.
Disney is its own crowd, even within Disney.. At Disneyland Paris, I thought tip was included, so I never tipped.. long and behold, it was expected I bring cash to tip employees.. I never bring cash, only have cc's on me.. So I never had money on hand to do what was customary. All employees acknowledged it was ok as their hands were tied to being able for me to charge tip onto credit card. There was probably 10 restaurants in Europe I mentioned that I had no money on, so the only way I can tip is on credit card. Half of those restaurants just said it was fine, because there was nothing they could do.

Well, if a restaurant pockets the service charge and doesn't pass onto to the servers what they collect.. the restaurant will quickly lose good service people. Even I would never tip beyond a mandatory service charge.. because my thinking is that the service charge is the required tip.. no more no less.

Is it me or has this thread gone from being "how to end tipping" to "how to justify tipping" ?

Apparently so! :rolleyes: I suppose that now we know why tipping will never end

That is only due to the massive failure after opening and having to rework so much, including menus and prices. (Not to mention reconstruction only a very short time after opening the resort)

I really don't understand this. This is the French Paris, not the Texas Paris. Again, there is no obligation to tip in France. You were not 'expected' to bring cash to tip as a tip is not required. It's not as if Disney is in its own universe; outside the US parks there is no obligation to tip.

No, they won't lose the good servers, because tips are not expected, and because the server doesn't work for the tips.
This directly contradicts what you said above, in relation to tipping in France.

For those who think that it is wrong, and culturally insensitive for visitors to the US not to tip, doesn't the reverse hold true as well?

There seems to be lots of people out there tipping such large amounts that it enables bar staff in hotels boasting that they earn several times what the their bosses earn for pouring a few drinks and keeping the free snacks topped up. Elsewhere people seem to think it is quite reasonable to tip sums that are totally disproportionate to local wages (a tip equivalent to about 30x the daily wage in Asia I read on a forum a few years ago). These people seem happy to tip such large amounts and for various reasons seem reluctant to reduce tipping.

This is good news, for me. Thank you for your generosity.

I can sleep easily now knowing that these staff that I thought were penniless are earning good money and therefore I don't feel the need to top their wages up by tipping for routine service or for opening an already overpriced expensive bottle of wine anymore safe in the knowledge that others are doing it on my behalf so well.


I'll still tip for good service but If you are concerned that my lack of tipping for routine service will lead to undue hardship for staff then perhaps it may be wise to increase your standard tip to maybe 25-35% to compensate for people like me who no longer feel the need to keep the barman in is Lexus.

:D

I thought that my 6DM/hour for my lowly Commis de Rang position was a huge salary, and although it wasn't a long term career goal, if it had been then the training and experience was at least worth that if not more.

Other than the occasional American bra-stuffer, we didn't get tipped, and this was even with a very high end clientele.

Tips didn't impact the service we provided. (If one didn't maintain a very high standard one wouldn't have survived in that environment, but one didn't work for tips)

It's not just you.
I also don't like the practice, and that's why I do something about it.

Probably depends on the time zone and who's posting when.
I don't see it ending in the USA soon and I don't have a problem with it there (for restaurants at least) as it's structural.

Asia is a large place...
You could mean some of the saikang jobs in Bangladesh or some of the average salaries in SIN/HKG/TYO of >USD 6000.

^^
Like the "kettles" subsidise the travel of FTers, I'm happy for show-off Americans to subsidise my dinner experience. Thank you. If you're right: the more you tip, the better service I will receive; if you're wrong, me not tipping/you over-tipping will make no difference, except I'll have 25% more money.

Incidentally, I like how the tipping justifiers have invented a whole vocab. to denigrate sensible folk. People who in any other transaction would be admired as canny and frugal shoppers, become "cheap" or people who "stiff" someone.

I can't recall the precise details but it was tipping of a local butler at a villa within a luxury hotel complex in somewhere like India, Sri Lanka or Bali.

The poster was suggesting that one should tip about US$300 a day. This would be in addition to the compulsory service charge already levied, which is the norm in luxury hotels in a lot of Asia.

It was an outrageous some of money and IIRC was probably the equivalent of 3-4 weeks wages.

Yes, I know the Butler works hard, and IIRC the guests were quite demanding but he or she were doing their job, . A butlers job after all is to errr.... butle

This sort of money could create all sorts of problems locally with the risk of unscrupulous criminals controlling who gets employed in those jobs, with the tips going back to these people in kick backs.

Yes, even in NYC, I've seen people tip $3 on a $10 martini. That's a LOT of money, even as a % of the bill. And, if you think that all of that is being reported, you're sorely mistaken. Which makes their take-home even higher.

I have a question for those people who think it's appropriate to tip people in countries where people are paid a living wage to do those specific jobs, irrespective of whether a tipping culture exists.

Let's say you are a member of the public at a train station in the UK and notice an old lady struggling with her luggage on the escalator down to the platform where her train is. You offer to help the lady with her luggage and on to the train, she accepts and is very grateful, it takes you about a minute. I'll assume you wouldn't expect to receive a financial reward, but would you accept a tip from that person if one was offered? I doubt very much you would, in fact you'd probably think it was a bit odd if one was offered. A kindly smile and "thank you" would suffice, I'm sure.

If that is the case, imagine now it's not you helping the lady but the railway porter paid a wage to assist people. Should the lady now expect to tip the porter? If so, why does the Porter who is paid to do the job deserve a tip, but you don't?

Not only that, they seem to think themselves superior for going against norms and tipping, just as the moral/ethical discussion arose again in the last few pages.

I am not unethical because I do not trip in France. If anything, I think less of the tippers as they are the ones looking down on others with a superior attitude, while refusing to adapt to cultural norms. And they are usually the ones looking down on the tippee as an inferior person based on their career choice.
Now now... ;) Just because I am posting outside of GMT or GMT+1 at the moment doesn't mean that I am one of those who will prevent tipping from coming to an end, or who tips outside of the accepted standard.

Disneyland Paris can at least leave a space on cc's slips for those who want to tip.. such as myself.. for excellent service received. I like to tip where its not expected and minimize tipping where it is expected.

Regarding the service charge contradicting tipping in France.. my comment was for NA, and the world in general, not just in France. Perhaps, that's the cross here.

Regarding good servers being lost if the restaurant doesn't pass on the service charge as tips to the server.. my comment is largely again for NA, and the world in general. In Europe, I think the excellent servers do expect a level a tip, but in general less. So excellent servers would be transient towards better opportunities.. thus, restaurants who don't pass on service charges will lose out on excellent service.

The purpose of the thread is clear.. There are those like myself, that don't see tipping end, but use this thread as a resource to cut back tipping.

No, they cannot. Disneyland Paris is in France, not the US, therefore that it is impossible

There are other posters on this thread with far more experience of living in Europe, and of being servers in high end restaurants in Europe. Surely we have a greater insight than someone who was a casual visitor for a few days once at the most highly tourist destinations?

I've tried to explain considering both my location and my past experience in a very high end restaurant (as well as casual service) in Europe.

What IS clear from this thread is that tipping will not end.

It will not end so long as there are people who measure the worth of others (and themselves) with monetary standards above all else. It will not end so long as there are people who refuse to understand that not everyone is motivated by money, and that having pride in a job and providing excellence in whatever their role is a greater motivation, especially when paid a decent wage. It will not end so long as there are people who insist on forcing their cultural values and norms on others, with no respect for differences.

While I don't usually agree with closing threads, I do agree that it may be time to acknowledge that tipping will not end, and that this thread very clearly demonstrates why.

I can't speak for France, but I've been in plenty of other countries where tipping is not conventional, and where most restaurants will not have a tip line, where a few restaurants (generally American exports) will have a tip line on their charge slip.

So it's certainly possible. Whether it's advisable or not is another matter; I don't know whether Disneyland Paris is enough of its own thing vs. an intentional exporting of the "American experience" that it's appropriate.

This thread has never really been about "how to end tipping" as a place to complain about it; it's a practice worthy of complaint, and it's interesting, if a little silly, to see people try to defend it.

I can. :)

There is no tip line based on the way the credit card system (and the service charge system for the government revenue) is set up. One would have to change the entire system, just to meet North American tipping desires. (There is technically a way to do it but it is more complex, has to be requested prior to the total being entered, and is not something offered as a solution due to the time and cost factor, and may never reach the server)

That's why one is advised that if one wishes to tip the server, to do it directly with cash. And I do believe that is the advice that some of gave that poster in past, about tipping in France.

I believe that these are the different steps (I included Canada since that poster is Canadian and maybe was confused when he was given a credit card machine for his chip/pin card, but no tip option)

In the US:
- server brings bill to table
- customer fills out tip line
- server takes bill back to machine, enters total with tip
- server brings bill back to customer to sign

In Canada:
- server brings bill and credit card machine to table
- customer enters their chip/pin card and machine asks if they wish to add tip
- customer enters 'yes', and enters a percentage or flat amount
- machine produces receipt based on total plus tip

In France:
- server brings bill and credit card machine to table
- total is entered into the machine
- customer enters their chip/pin card into the machine
- there is no option for customer to select 'yes' to add tip, unlike in Canada

(But I do agree with you that the defense of tipping/over-tipping has been rather, er, 'interesting')

Not quite. It's actually:

In the US:
- server brings bill to table
- customer puts credit card in the bill
- server takes credit card to machine and runs it for total amount due without tip
- server brings back credit card and credit card receipt to table
- customer fills out tip line and signs
- at some point after the customer leaves, server takes bill back to machine and enters total with tip for final processing

In most cases, the server won't know the amount the customer tipped until after the customer has left the restaurant. I have had servers ask if it's OK to take the signed receipt before the party has left if the party is lollygagging at the table and the server is about to go off-shift (or the restaurant is closing), as they need to settle their transactions before they can leave. In these cases, the server will see the tip line with the customer still present, but it's fairly rare.

Similar to Chile, where the machine also takes a swipe (non chip/pin card). It was cash-only tipping until recently. It is odd knowing the server knows the tip while he is there in front of you, but 10% is so standard, absent something great or awful, that it usually isn't anything uncomfortable.

Whew! I missed a few steps; thanks for the adjustment. But that is a long process, and interesting comment about the tip being unknown until they ring it in.

(But it still doesn't change the fact that it's a different process in France, even from those countries where one uses a portable machine and chip/pin, like the Canada example)

I don't disagree, and sometimes the multiple-step-back-and-forth can be somewhat cumbersome. If I'm in a hurry and the server hasn't yet brought the bill, I'll often flag him or her down and hand my credit card, saying something like, "I've gotta run soon, can I just give this to you?" That way, once they come back with my bill and credit card receipt, I can just sign it and rush out of there instead of waiting (sometimes not an insignificant amount of time) for them to first bring the bill and then pick it back up with my card and bring it back for me to sign.

That's why I have a hard time seeing a tip as something about self-importance. If my tip were done for an ego boost, I'd want the employee to see the tip before I left (egos like to be fed, right?). For me, a tip is an honest gesture of appreciation, and when I leave a big (20%+) tip, I actually enjoy knowing that I'm giving a server a "warm fuzzy" without expecting them to respond in any way to me.

It's similar to doing something unexpected in secret like sponsoring an upgrade for a soldier coming home for Christmas, when upgrade instruments are nearing expiration--back in the days of paper upgrade certificates on Alaska Airlines, many of us in the Alaska Airlines forum would make it a regular practice to head out to the airport at the end of the year, find a gate with a soldier sitting waiting to board a plane, and go up to the gate agent, hand over the paper upgrade coupon, and tell them to surprise the soldier with an upgrade from an appreciative citizen. Part of the fun and magic is not expecting a response from the recipient of any sort. :)

I'm the customer.. and whether conventional in a country or not.. I tip on credit card. If the space isn't there.. I don't tip, because I don't have cash on hand, or minimal cash on hand where I can't afford to tip and be out of cash for other trip purposes.

I can appreciate the customs in France, hence Disneyland Paris.. but with Disney, they've got a system setup and should be consistent around the world.. just like their Disney Park bags, and Mickey Mouse.. :-:

Get me a tip line on the cc slip so I can tip.. there are some restaurants in France who do this (i.e. an Italian restaurant by Versaille).. so simple.:o

Feel free to go up against the French government to have them change their system. And Disneyland Paris isn't owned by Americans, so I doubt that they care about catering to the small number who visit, and who refuse to follow cultural norms.

I suggest that you don't even consider tipping at Tokyo Disney.

Do you have any idea how conceited that sounds?
What if I said, regarding my next trip to the US - I'm the customer, and whether conventional there or not, I don't tip?

Time out.

cblaisd
Moderator, Dining Buzz