Feb 21, 2019, 2:36 pm
Last edit by: mnbp
Here are the applications for flight slots at HND (12 slots available to US carriers):
UA (six slots requested)
HND - EWR/ORD/IAD/LAX/IAH/GUM
Application of United Airlines (508 pages)
Answer of United Airlines (154 pages) "United's proposal will make the best use of scarce Haneda slots and provide the greatest public benefits, and No other carrier has demonstrated the benefits of its proposals more than United"
Consolidated reply of United Airlines (148 pages) "Our proposal is best, and the other guys misrepresented the facts."
HA (three slots requested)
HND - HNL (3x daily)
Application of Hawaiian Airlines (118 pages)
Answer of Hawaiian Airlines (111 pages) "Why HA is best, here's what's wrong with DL's request, here's what's wrong with UA's request, and here's what's wrong with AA's request"
Consolidated Reply of Hawaiian Airlines (33 pages) "Our proposal is best, and here's what's wrong with DL, UA and AA's proposals"
AA (four slots requested)
HND - DFW/LAX/DFW/LAS (DFW is AA's first and third preference)
Application of American Airlines (135 pages)
Answer of American Airlines (106 pages) "Only AA adds competition, DL squanders scarce resources, and don't reward UA further"
Consolidated Reply of American Airlines (111 pages) "Here's why DFW, LAX and LAS should be selected, and UA's baseless attacks on AA distract from UA's poor proposal"
DL (six slots requested)
HND - SEA/DTW/ATL/PDX/HNL/HNL (HNL Is DL's fifth and sixth preference)
Application of Delta Air Lines (199 pages)
Answer of Delta Air Lines (90 pages) "DL's proposal maximizes public benefits, DL's proposal should be granted in full before UA, AA, and HA are considered, and DL deserves the slot times it has requested"
Reply of Delta Air Lines (75 pages) "Answers from UA, AA and HA underscore why DL's proposal should be granted in full, and B6's answer is irrelevant to this proceeding"
And the odd filing:
Answer of Jetblue Airways Corporation (6 pages) "If it is important for DOT to grant DL's application for slots at HND, it is equally important to allow JetBlue to enter LHR and AMS"
UA (six slots requested)
HND - EWR/ORD/IAD/LAX/IAH/GUM
Application of United Airlines (508 pages)
Answer of United Airlines (154 pages) "United's proposal will make the best use of scarce Haneda slots and provide the greatest public benefits, and No other carrier has demonstrated the benefits of its proposals more than United"
Consolidated reply of United Airlines (148 pages) "Our proposal is best, and the other guys misrepresented the facts."
HA (three slots requested)
HND - HNL (3x daily)
Application of Hawaiian Airlines (118 pages)
Answer of Hawaiian Airlines (111 pages) "Why HA is best, here's what's wrong with DL's request, here's what's wrong with UA's request, and here's what's wrong with AA's request"
Consolidated Reply of Hawaiian Airlines (33 pages) "Our proposal is best, and here's what's wrong with DL, UA and AA's proposals"
AA (four slots requested)
HND - DFW/LAX/DFW/LAS (DFW is AA's first and third preference)
Application of American Airlines (135 pages)
Answer of American Airlines (106 pages) "Only AA adds competition, DL squanders scarce resources, and don't reward UA further"
Consolidated Reply of American Airlines (111 pages) "Here's why DFW, LAX and LAS should be selected, and UA's baseless attacks on AA distract from UA's poor proposal"
DL (six slots requested)
HND - SEA/DTW/ATL/PDX/HNL/HNL (HNL Is DL's fifth and sixth preference)
Application of Delta Air Lines (199 pages)
Answer of Delta Air Lines (90 pages) "DL's proposal maximizes public benefits, DL's proposal should be granted in full before UA, AA, and HA are considered, and DL deserves the slot times it has requested"
Reply of Delta Air Lines (75 pages) "Answers from UA, AA and HA underscore why DL's proposal should be granted in full, and B6's answer is irrelevant to this proceeding"
And the odd filing:
Answer of Jetblue Airways Corporation (6 pages) "If it is important for DOT to grant DL's application for slots at HND, it is equally important to allow JetBlue to enter LHR and AMS"
DOT starts new proceeding for added HND slots
Feb 21, 2019, 3:26 pm
#47
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: MCO
Programs: DL PM, UA Silver, Marriott Titanium, Hertz Presidents Circle
Posts: 4,324
DL has applied for 6 slots
1) SEA
2) DTW
3) ATL
4) PDX
5) HNL 2X
https://www.regulations.gov/contentS...ontentType=pdf
1) SEA
2) DTW
3) ATL
4) PDX
5) HNL 2X
https://www.regulations.gov/contentS...ontentType=pdf
Feb 21, 2019, 4:05 pm
#48
Join Date: Mar 2003
Programs: former MD-88 jumpseat Medallion. DL FO, AA PLT PRO. Marriott LT Plat.
Posts: 752
I"ll tag on the equipment that is proposed to be flown with each city pairing:
SEA: A330-900
DTW: A350-900
ATL: B777-200ER
PDX: A330-200
HNL 2X: B767-300ER
my totally random and unbiased musings:
1. I bet PDX needed a 332 or larger in the proposal to have a legitimate chance. American and United would probably cry foul if the "best" the route warranted was a 767 versus what those carriers would be offering via their other gateways.
2. ATL being the 3rd choice of preference is interesting. Perhaps DL thinks ATL is a slam-dunk anyways, and wanted SEA as the #1 choice as its maybe on shakier footing in the DOT's eyes? (tried once before and didn't succeed?). IDK.
3. No JFK interest whatsoever?
I could see DL getting all of these, less one of the HNL pairings.
SEA: A330-900
DTW: A350-900
ATL: B777-200ER
PDX: A330-200
HNL 2X: B767-300ER
my totally random and unbiased musings:
1. I bet PDX needed a 332 or larger in the proposal to have a legitimate chance. American and United would probably cry foul if the "best" the route warranted was a 767 versus what those carriers would be offering via their other gateways.
2. ATL being the 3rd choice of preference is interesting. Perhaps DL thinks ATL is a slam-dunk anyways, and wanted SEA as the #1 choice as its maybe on shakier footing in the DOT's eyes? (tried once before and didn't succeed?). IDK.
3. No JFK interest whatsoever?
I could see DL getting all of these, less one of the HNL pairings.
Feb 21, 2019, 4:13 pm
#49
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: TYO / WAS / NYC
Programs: American Express got a hit man lookin' for me
Posts: 4,598
ATL probably got lower priority because it's a geographically less compelling gateway for flights to Japan, unless you're going to/from Florida or South America. At any rate, it seems very unlikely that DL will get fewer than four slot pairs, so I think their proposed mainland routes are secure; the big questions are (1) whether they get HNL, and (2) whether they close their NRT operation entirely after the new HND routes come online.
Feb 21, 2019, 4:32 pm
#50
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,885
I"ll tag on the equipment that is proposed to be flown with each city pairing:
SEA: A330-900
DTW: A350-900
ATL: B777-200ER
PDX: A330-200
HNL 2X: B767-300ER
my totally random and unbiased musings:
1. I bet PDX needed a 332 or larger in the proposal to have a legitimate chance. American and United would probably cry foul if the "best" the route warranted was a 767 versus what those carriers would be offering via their other gateways.
2. ATL being the 3rd choice of preference is interesting. Perhaps DL thinks ATL is a slam-dunk anyways, and wanted SEA as the #1 choice as its maybe on shakier footing in the DOT's eyes? (tried once before and didn't succeed?). IDK.
3. No JFK interest whatsoever?
I could see DL getting all of these, less one of the HNL pairings.
SEA: A330-900
DTW: A350-900
ATL: B777-200ER
PDX: A330-200
HNL 2X: B767-300ER
my totally random and unbiased musings:
1. I bet PDX needed a 332 or larger in the proposal to have a legitimate chance. American and United would probably cry foul if the "best" the route warranted was a 767 versus what those carriers would be offering via their other gateways.
2. ATL being the 3rd choice of preference is interesting. Perhaps DL thinks ATL is a slam-dunk anyways, and wanted SEA as the #1 choice as its maybe on shakier footing in the DOT's eyes? (tried once before and didn't succeed?). IDK.
3. No JFK interest whatsoever?
I could see DL getting all of these, less one of the HNL pairings.
Feb 21, 2019, 5:09 pm
#51
Join Date: Oct 2009
Programs: Marriott, IHG, Delta, United
Posts: 576
I"ll tag on the equipment that is proposed to be flown with each city pairing:
SEA: A330-900
DTW: A350-900
ATL: B777-200ER
PDX: A330-200
HNL 2X: B767-300ER
my totally random and unbiased musings:
1. I bet PDX needed a 332 or larger in the proposal to have a legitimate chance. American and United would probably cry foul if the "best" the route warranted was a 767 versus what those carriers would be offering via their other gateways.
2. ATL being the 3rd choice of preference is interesting. Perhaps DL thinks ATL is a slam-dunk anyways, and wanted SEA as the #1 choice as its maybe on shakier footing in the DOT's eyes? (tried once before and didn't succeed?). IDK.
3. No JFK interest whatsoever?
I could see DL getting all of these, less one of the HNL pairings.
SEA: A330-900
DTW: A350-900
ATL: B777-200ER
PDX: A330-200
HNL 2X: B767-300ER
my totally random and unbiased musings:
1. I bet PDX needed a 332 or larger in the proposal to have a legitimate chance. American and United would probably cry foul if the "best" the route warranted was a 767 versus what those carriers would be offering via their other gateways.
2. ATL being the 3rd choice of preference is interesting. Perhaps DL thinks ATL is a slam-dunk anyways, and wanted SEA as the #1 choice as its maybe on shakier footing in the DOT's eyes? (tried once before and didn't succeed?). IDK.
3. No JFK interest whatsoever?
I could see DL getting all of these, less one of the HNL pairings.
As it worked out, I do think DL’s fifth choice of HNL #1 would win a tiebreaker against HA’s second bid of HNL #2, for competition reasons. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out.
Feb 21, 2019, 5:25 pm
#52
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Tokyo
Programs: DL Diamond, ANA Platinum
Posts: 1,532
Lack of JFK and inclusion of a second HNL is pretty surprising. This is basically going to be DL's last chance to add new flights to TYO for a very, very, very long time given their impending withdrawal from NRT.
It would have been nice if the DOT had negotiated an extra slot or two for nighttime departures. HND is underutilized during that time but the timing still works perfectly for flights to HNL and even GUM.
I predict every route currently unserved from HND will be selected:
1. SEA (DL)
2. DTW (DL)
3. ATL (DL)
4. PDX (DL)
5. DFW (AA)
6. LAS (AA)
7. EWR (UA)
8. IAD (UA)
9. GUM (UA)
10. IAH (UA)
10. LAS (AA)
For the last two, I imagine HA and DL's HNL requests are granted. Either one of those, or ORD (UA).
It would have been nice if the DOT had negotiated an extra slot or two for nighttime departures. HND is underutilized during that time but the timing still works perfectly for flights to HNL and even GUM.
I predict every route currently unserved from HND will be selected:
1. SEA (DL)
2. DTW (DL)
3. ATL (DL)
4. PDX (DL)
5. DFW (AA)
6. LAS (AA)
7. EWR (UA)
8. IAD (UA)
9. GUM (UA)
10. IAH (UA)
10. LAS (AA)
For the last two, I imagine HA and DL's HNL requests are granted. Either one of those, or ORD (UA).
Feb 21, 2019, 8:00 pm
#53
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: SJC (formerly CHI and STL)
Programs: AS, DL, AA, UA, WN
Posts: 1,013
UA's JV with ANA I think all but seals the deal that they will get at least 5 if not all 6 slots they request since it provides consumers the benefit of connecting throughout Japan and I think they had a wise spread of departure cities. I am sure AA will get 2 slots. Seems reasonable to give HA 2 slots since they will be running A330's vs DL's proposed 767 and there is a lot of traffic between Japan and HI, which leaves 2, maybe 3 slots for DL. DL would get SEA and ATL and if they get a third DTW.
The past allocations have shown that DL receives preferential treatment to UA and AA in these HND slot proceedings precisely because they have no partner, and DL needs to receive a greater sure to provide the most balanced competition against UA/ANA and AA/JL. There's not much reason to expect anything different to happen this time.
Feb 21, 2019, 11:14 pm
#54
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2013
Programs: DL PM, MR Titanium/LTP, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 10,130
To reiterate what I said upthread when the new HND slots were first announced, if DL does in fact get a full complement of HND slots leading to the shut down of the NRT hub, they better figure out a lounge situation ASAP for HND -- anything short of a SkyClub is going to be a big downgrade to FO and below (and SkyClub members either through AMEX Plat/DL Reserve or other means) and anything short of a SkyTeam-branded lounge to at least allow GM and above free access is going to be a huge slap in the face after years of having the NRT SkyClub for both ex-NRT flights and TPAC flights with an NRT layover.
IMO I think that SEA, DTW, ATL, PDX are virtual locks but am shocked they didn't throw JFK in the mix above HNL #2 (and even HNL #1 ) and somewhat surprised not to see BOS, presumably both could've been serviced by the A339
IMO I think that SEA, DTW, ATL, PDX are virtual locks but am shocked they didn't throw JFK in the mix above HNL #2 (and even HNL #1 ) and somewhat surprised not to see BOS, presumably both could've been serviced by the A339
Last edited by Duke787; Feb 21, 2019 at 11:19 pm
Feb 21, 2019, 11:53 pm
#55
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Orlando, FL Area
Programs: Delta SkySponge ExtraAbsorbent, SPG Gold
Posts: 29,988
I've contacted the DOT with my concerns. I have no delusions that they will be read let alone considered but it made me feel better. Delta has twice dropped PDX-NRT. And they currently fly the route with a 767. And there is still a few flights left to connect to at NRT. Upguaging to an A330 with zero connecting opportunities on either end looks very fishy. When the next recession hits I can't see Delta operating the flight. It's a waste of a slot. Let JL or NH operate the flight if they want to. At least there would be connectivity on the HND end.
Feb 21, 2019, 11:58 pm
#56
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SEA
Programs: AS MVPG, DL FO, Marriott Gold, Hertz 5 Whatevers
Posts: 1,099
Surprised to see DL list HNL twice - didn't they knock HNL-NRT down to one daily from two? Their SkyTeam buddy KE also flies HNL-TYO (NRT). In my mind I put JFK as the last choice, behind HNL.
Wasn't surprised to see SEA-HND listed as the A339 instead of the A359. PDX-NRT is probably a solid performer, but how are they going to rotate the A332 frame? AMS?
Wasn't surprised to see SEA-HND listed as the A339 instead of the A359. PDX-NRT is probably a solid performer, but how are they going to rotate the A332 frame? AMS?
Last edited by ab2013; Feb 22, 2019 at 12:09 am
Feb 22, 2019, 1:00 am
#57
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Alexandria, Longboat Key
Programs: UA Gold Marriott Gold AA Gold Choice Gold Wyndham PLAT IHG PLAT Avis President's Club Amtrak Select
Posts: 2,263
Before Delta submitted the application I was certain they would apply for ATL/DTW/SEA/PDX using a mix of 772/A350/A339neo aircraft and either JFK-HND or HNL-HND. Well, it should be clear now that Delta will not be flying any JFK-Asia for the foreseeable future, that includes using their own metal on JFK-ICN. I predicted and I still maintain my prediction Delta will receive five slots. All five, yes all five including PDX, make sense. I don't expect, and probably Delta does as well, to see Delta being awarded two HNL-HND frequencies. As Delta is the only of the US3 to apply for a HNL-HND frequency, giving the possibility of DOT approving a HAL/JAL JV on Hawai'i-Japan routes, I find it very hard for DOT to refuse Delta's HNL-HND application. As its likely Delta won't receive the second HNL-HND frequency, its probable they use a larger aircraft such as the A339neo to fly the single HNL-HND frequency. The real draw down of the 767 fleet begins after this summer's TATL schedule ends in September I think? From what I've heard/read, the A339neos are going to the West Coast and fly West-Coast-Europe/Asia. Its easy to envision the first batch of A339neos flying all SEA-Intercontinental flights LAX-AMS/CDG/HND and rotate a HNL-HND frequency in there.
Contrary to popular belief, why is Delta still flying PDX-NRT? Its obviously not for NRT-MNL/SIN. Those flights are finished soon enough. I have to reiterate here again. The largest international market for the Portland metro area is Tokyo. Why would Delta voluntarily give it up? They're still flying it even after ending JFK-NRT, ending Delta's NYC hub connection to Asia, and SEA-HKG, thus ending Delta's Hong Kong flying? The A332 is probably the future of that flight as the A339neo is likely too large. As I stated earlier, the 767 fleet is likely to leave the West Coast in the coming years as the fleet is drawn down and concentrated on TATL/Deep South America/Transcon. Delta will probably be rotating the A332 on either PDX-AMS or this may be a future indication they intend to fly PDX-LHR year round. (Personally I hope its the latter.) For those looking for a connection beyond TYO, my understanding is HND is a better airport than NRT to connect to the Shinkansen as the time is much less since HND is closer than NRT.
Contrary to popular belief, why is Delta still flying PDX-NRT? Its obviously not for NRT-MNL/SIN. Those flights are finished soon enough. I have to reiterate here again. The largest international market for the Portland metro area is Tokyo. Why would Delta voluntarily give it up? They're still flying it even after ending JFK-NRT, ending Delta's NYC hub connection to Asia, and SEA-HKG, thus ending Delta's Hong Kong flying? The A332 is probably the future of that flight as the A339neo is likely too large. As I stated earlier, the 767 fleet is likely to leave the West Coast in the coming years as the fleet is drawn down and concentrated on TATL/Deep South America/Transcon. Delta will probably be rotating the A332 on either PDX-AMS or this may be a future indication they intend to fly PDX-LHR year round. (Personally I hope its the latter.) For those looking for a connection beyond TYO, my understanding is HND is a better airport than NRT to connect to the Shinkansen as the time is much less since HND is closer than NRT.
Feb 22, 2019, 2:03 am
#58
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SEA
Programs: AS MVPG, DL FO, Marriott Gold, Hertz 5 Whatevers
Posts: 1,099
Before Delta submitted the application I was certain they would apply for ATL/DTW/SEA/PDX using a mix of 772/A350/A339neo aircraft and either JFK-HND or HNL-HND. Well, it should be clear now that Delta will not be flying any JFK-Asia for the foreseeable future, that includes using their own metal on JFK-ICN. I predicted and I still maintain my prediction Delta will receive five slots. All five, yes all five including PDX, make sense. I don't expect, and probably Delta does as well, to see Delta being awarded two HNL-HND frequencies. As Delta is the only of the US3 to apply for a HNL-HND frequency, giving the possibility of DOT approving a HAL/JAL JV on Hawai'i-Japan routes, I find it very hard for DOT to refuse Delta's HNL-HND application. As its likely Delta won't receive the second HNL-HND frequency, its probable they use a larger aircraft such as the A339neo to fly the single HNL-HND frequency. The real draw down of the 767 fleet begins after this summer's TATL schedule ends in September I think? From what I've heard/read, the A339neos are going to the West Coast and fly West-Coast-Europe/Asia. Its easy to envision the first batch of A339neos flying all SEA-Intercontinental flights LAX-AMS/CDG/HND and rotate a HNL-HND frequency in there.
Contrary to popular belief, why is Delta still flying PDX-NRT? Its obviously not for NRT-MNL/SIN. Those flights are finished soon enough. I have to reiterate here again. The largest international market for the Portland metro area is Tokyo. Why would Delta voluntarily give it up? They're still flying it even after ending JFK-NRT, ending Delta's NYC hub connection to Asia, and SEA-HKG, thus ending Delta's Hong Kong flying? The A332 is probably the future of that flight as the A339neo is likely too large. As I stated earlier, the 767 fleet is likely to leave the West Coast in the coming years as the fleet is drawn down and concentrated on TATL/Deep South America/Transcon. Delta will probably be rotating the A332 on either PDX-AMS or this may be a future indication they intend to fly PDX-LHR year round. (Personally I hope its the latter.) For those looking for a connection beyond TYO, my understanding is HND is a better airport than NRT to connect to the Shinkansen as the time is much less since HND is closer than NRT.
Contrary to popular belief, why is Delta still flying PDX-NRT? Its obviously not for NRT-MNL/SIN. Those flights are finished soon enough. I have to reiterate here again. The largest international market for the Portland metro area is Tokyo. Why would Delta voluntarily give it up? They're still flying it even after ending JFK-NRT, ending Delta's NYC hub connection to Asia, and SEA-HKG, thus ending Delta's Hong Kong flying? The A332 is probably the future of that flight as the A339neo is likely too large. As I stated earlier, the 767 fleet is likely to leave the West Coast in the coming years as the fleet is drawn down and concentrated on TATL/Deep South America/Transcon. Delta will probably be rotating the A332 on either PDX-AMS or this may be a future indication they intend to fly PDX-LHR year round. (Personally I hope its the latter.) For those looking for a connection beyond TYO, my understanding is HND is a better airport than NRT to connect to the Shinkansen as the time is much less since HND is closer than NRT.
Let’s not forget - while Portland is often overshadowed by Seattle, Portland is still doing very well economically and growing rapidly.
Feb 22, 2019, 9:10 am
#59
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2001
Programs: DL 1 million, AA 1 mil, HH lapsed Diamond, Marriott Plat
Posts: 28,190
I don't think DL would hesitate to cut PDX-AMS capacity seasonally (it's not a 333 thru the end of schedule) to make PDX-HND viable on a 332.
Feb 22, 2019, 10:05 am
#60
Join Date: Feb 2018
Programs: Delta Skymiles, Southwest Rapid Rewards
Posts: 13
Delta proposes flights between Haneda, Tokyo’s city airport, and 5 new U.S. cities
Delta today filed an application with the U.S. Department of Transportation to launch daily daytime service between Tokyo-Haneda airport and Seattle, Detroit, Atlanta, and Portland, Ore., as well as twice-daily service between Haneda and Honolulu.
Delta’s proposed routes would be the only direct service currently offered by U.S. carriers between Haneda, Tokyo’s preferred airport for business travelers and the closest to the city center, and the communities of Seattle, Portland, Atlanta and Detroit. ......
https://news.delta.com/delta-proposes-flights-between-haneda-tokyo-s-city-airport-and-5-new-us-cities
Delta’s proposed routes would be the only direct service currently offered by U.S. carriers between Haneda, Tokyo’s preferred airport for business travelers and the closest to the city center, and the communities of Seattle, Portland, Atlanta and Detroit. ......
https://news.delta.com/delta-proposes-flights-between-haneda-tokyo-s-city-airport-and-5-new-us-cities