Feb 21, 2019, 2:36 pm
Last edit by: mnbp
Here are the applications for flight slots at HND (12 slots available to US carriers):
UA (six slots requested)
HND - EWR/ORD/IAD/LAX/IAH/GUM
Application of United Airlines (508 pages)
Answer of United Airlines (154 pages) "United's proposal will make the best use of scarce Haneda slots and provide the greatest public benefits, and No other carrier has demonstrated the benefits of its proposals more than United"
Consolidated reply of United Airlines (148 pages) "Our proposal is best, and the other guys misrepresented the facts."
HA (three slots requested)
HND - HNL (3x daily)
Application of Hawaiian Airlines (118 pages)
Answer of Hawaiian Airlines (111 pages) "Why HA is best, here's what's wrong with DL's request, here's what's wrong with UA's request, and here's what's wrong with AA's request"
Consolidated Reply of Hawaiian Airlines (33 pages) "Our proposal is best, and here's what's wrong with DL, UA and AA's proposals"
AA (four slots requested)
HND - DFW/LAX/DFW/LAS (DFW is AA's first and third preference)
Application of American Airlines (135 pages)
Answer of American Airlines (106 pages) "Only AA adds competition, DL squanders scarce resources, and don't reward UA further"
Consolidated Reply of American Airlines (111 pages) "Here's why DFW, LAX and LAS should be selected, and UA's baseless attacks on AA distract from UA's poor proposal"
DL (six slots requested)
HND - SEA/DTW/ATL/PDX/HNL/HNL (HNL Is DL's fifth and sixth preference)
Application of Delta Air Lines (199 pages)
Answer of Delta Air Lines (90 pages) "DL's proposal maximizes public benefits, DL's proposal should be granted in full before UA, AA, and HA are considered, and DL deserves the slot times it has requested"
Reply of Delta Air Lines (75 pages) "Answers from UA, AA and HA underscore why DL's proposal should be granted in full, and B6's answer is irrelevant to this proceeding"
And the odd filing:
Answer of Jetblue Airways Corporation (6 pages) "If it is important for DOT to grant DL's application for slots at HND, it is equally important to allow JetBlue to enter LHR and AMS"
UA (six slots requested)
HND - EWR/ORD/IAD/LAX/IAH/GUM
Application of United Airlines (508 pages)
Answer of United Airlines (154 pages) "United's proposal will make the best use of scarce Haneda slots and provide the greatest public benefits, and No other carrier has demonstrated the benefits of its proposals more than United"
Consolidated reply of United Airlines (148 pages) "Our proposal is best, and the other guys misrepresented the facts."
HA (three slots requested)
HND - HNL (3x daily)
Application of Hawaiian Airlines (118 pages)
Answer of Hawaiian Airlines (111 pages) "Why HA is best, here's what's wrong with DL's request, here's what's wrong with UA's request, and here's what's wrong with AA's request"
Consolidated Reply of Hawaiian Airlines (33 pages) "Our proposal is best, and here's what's wrong with DL, UA and AA's proposals"
AA (four slots requested)
HND - DFW/LAX/DFW/LAS (DFW is AA's first and third preference)
Application of American Airlines (135 pages)
Answer of American Airlines (106 pages) "Only AA adds competition, DL squanders scarce resources, and don't reward UA further"
Consolidated Reply of American Airlines (111 pages) "Here's why DFW, LAX and LAS should be selected, and UA's baseless attacks on AA distract from UA's poor proposal"
DL (six slots requested)
HND - SEA/DTW/ATL/PDX/HNL/HNL (HNL Is DL's fifth and sixth preference)
Application of Delta Air Lines (199 pages)
Answer of Delta Air Lines (90 pages) "DL's proposal maximizes public benefits, DL's proposal should be granted in full before UA, AA, and HA are considered, and DL deserves the slot times it has requested"
Reply of Delta Air Lines (75 pages) "Answers from UA, AA and HA underscore why DL's proposal should be granted in full, and B6's answer is irrelevant to this proceeding"
And the odd filing:
Answer of Jetblue Airways Corporation (6 pages) "If it is important for DOT to grant DL's application for slots at HND, it is equally important to allow JetBlue to enter LHR and AMS"
DOT starts new proceeding for added HND slots
Feb 7, 2019, 3:30 pm
#1
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DOT starts new proceeding for added HND slots
DOT is out this afternoon with an order inviting proposals for a dozen new daytime flights to Tokyo Haneda airport. Even if Delta gets just three slots (SEA, ATL, DTW), I expect that would be the end of Delta's service to Narita. I'd say 4 slots is far more likely, which means one of PDX/HNL/SIN/MNL would also move. No matter what, though, by Summer Season 2020, I suspect Delta will have Gatwick'd Narita.
Current NRT service:
HA: HNL 1x
AA: ORD, DFW, LAX all 1x
UA: ORD, DEN, HNL, IAH, LAX, EWR, SFO, IAD all 1x and GUM 3x
So, most likely distribution is 1 to Hawaiian, 3 to American, and then either 4-4 Delta/United or 5-3 Delta/United because of United's JV with ANA.
Will be fascinating to watch. I suspect Delta will seek seven — then the question becomes what would they forego if they only get five.
Here's the full order:
https://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf103/476.pdf
Current NRT service:
HA: HNL 1x
AA: ORD, DFW, LAX all 1x
UA: ORD, DEN, HNL, IAH, LAX, EWR, SFO, IAD all 1x and GUM 3x
So, most likely distribution is 1 to Hawaiian, 3 to American, and then either 4-4 Delta/United or 5-3 Delta/United because of United's JV with ANA.
Will be fascinating to watch. I suspect Delta will seek seven — then the question becomes what would they forego if they only get five.
Here's the full order:
https://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf103/476.pdf
Last edited by 3Cforme; Feb 7, 2019 at 5:41 pm
Feb 7, 2019, 3:50 pm
#2
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While it might mean yet another shift from NRT to HND, I think saying it will be 'the end' for Delta flights to NRT is very premature.
Does the DOT have any influence over the flights to SIN/MNL? I would assume even if they do, they would not consider a HND slot for these routes over a US city.
Does the DOT have any influence over the flights to SIN/MNL? I would assume even if they do, they would not consider a HND slot for these routes over a US city.
Feb 7, 2019, 4:36 pm
#3
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SEA-SIN seems unlikely-ish as long as SQ is in town, unless DL feels like picking a fight, but I’m not even sure they could get fifth freedom rights from South Korea. It’s not out of the question - KE does have authority for LAX-GRU, so there’s a reciprocity argument to be made on that end, at least. Seems likelier than PVG, at least. Maybe DTW-SIN, although that’s pushing the boundaries of route length...
Feb 7, 2019, 4:42 pm
#4
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While it might mean yet another shift from NRT to HND, I think saying it will be 'the end' for Delta flights to NRT is very premature.
Does the DOT have any influence over the flights to SIN/MNL? I would assume even if they do, they would not consider a HND slot for these routes over a US city.
Does the DOT have any influence over the flights to SIN/MNL? I would assume even if they do, they would not consider a HND slot for these routes over a US city.
DL only has four NRT flights they would want shifted to HND exUSA with ATL/SEA/PDX/DTW. They settle for four and shift all flying to HND, that would be a very plausible idea that it could mean the end for NRT flying.
Feb 7, 2019, 4:58 pm
#5
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Good luck for DL getting a HND slot to run HND-MNL or HND-SIN that connects well with their transpacific flights.
I think those intra-Asia routes are toast and folks will connect through ICN on KE. JAL just added a HND-MNL route.
My guess is that it's down to PDX vs HNL for the 4th slot.
I think a 5th freedom ICN-SIN flight could happen if DL wants to stay in SIN.
I think those intra-Asia routes are toast and folks will connect through ICN on KE. JAL just added a HND-MNL route.
My guess is that it's down to PDX vs HNL for the 4th slot.
I think a 5th freedom ICN-SIN flight could happen if DL wants to stay in SIN.
Feb 7, 2019, 6:52 pm
#6
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I predict DL makes a play for 6 out of 12 slots:
HND-DTW
HND-SEA
HND-ATL
HND-HNL
HND-JFK
HND-PDX
I'm surprised no additional nighttime slots were generated from the new agreement. While they're not ideal for the mainland, they would - and have - worked perfectly for HNL/KOA. Considering how underutilized nighttime slots are, the two sides should've negotiated an extra slot pair or two.
HND-DTW
HND-SEA
HND-ATL
HND-HNL
HND-JFK
HND-PDX
I'm surprised no additional nighttime slots were generated from the new agreement. While they're not ideal for the mainland, they would - and have - worked perfectly for HNL/KOA. Considering how underutilized nighttime slots are, the two sides should've negotiated an extra slot pair or two.
Last edited by FireEmblemPride; Feb 7, 2019 at 7:02 pm
Feb 7, 2019, 8:48 pm
#7
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Given that DL received two HND slot pairs in the last round versus one each for UA and AA. I doubt that they will still receive more pairs than either one of them in this next round.
Feb 7, 2019, 9:00 pm
#8
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Agreed. Delta has repeatedly made a mockery of the DOT with HND slots. I'd be cool with it if they didn't get any. Hawaiian Airlines is the only airline that has operates their HND frequencies at 100% service levels.
Feb 7, 2019, 9:23 pm
#9
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Originally Posted by FireEmblemPride
I predict DL makes a play for 6 out of 12 slots:
HND-DTW
HND-SEA
HND-ATL
HND-HNL
HND-JFK
HND-PDX
HND-DTW
HND-SEA
HND-ATL
HND-HNL
HND-JFK
HND-PDX
Feb 7, 2019, 9:23 pm
#10
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 159
Delta then moved DTW to SEA again with approval from the DOT, and with no objections from other airlines.
While you can (rightly) argue that Delta played games with the Seattle authority, it did technically follow the rules the DOT had in place.
When AA objected to the DOT, the DOT issued new guidance to Delta, who complied 100% with DOT's ruling, until they gave up the route authority.
Delta has since operated daytime slots from MSP and LAX to the letter of the law.
So where's the mockery? That they asked and got permission to use smaller aircraft and move the authority? That they complied with DOT rules, including when the DOT (again, rightly) imposed new rules after AA's objection?
Feb 7, 2019, 11:05 pm
#11
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While you can (rightly) argue that Delta played games with the Seattle authority, it did technically follow the rules the DOT had in place.
So where's the mockery? That they asked and got permission to use smaller aircraft and move the authority? That they complied with DOT rules, including when the DOT (again, rightly) imposed new rules after AA's objection?
So where's the mockery? That they asked and got permission to use smaller aircraft and move the authority? That they complied with DOT rules, including when the DOT (again, rightly) imposed new rules after AA's objection?
I think it’s fair to say that someone complying with the letter but not the spirit of an allocation of a rare resource is making a mockery of the process, and I think the way the resulting regulatory process played out was a fair resolution. I also think it was a key factor in the DOT denying Delta’s request for slot flexibility in this round of allocations...
Feb 8, 2019, 7:46 am
#12
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I think the mockery is referring to operating the flight exactly eleven times during the entire winter. Technically within the minimums, but the DOT took a dim view of that. They then required Delta to obtain prior DOT approval before canceling more than 2 flights all year (which might have even included mechanical or weather cancellation); that triggered Delta eventually giving up entirely and returning the authority to the DOT.
I think it’s fair to say that someone complying with the letter but not the spirit of an allocation of a rare resource is making a mockery of the process, and I think the way the resulting regulatory process played out was a fair resolution. I also think it was a key factor in the DOT denying Delta’s request for slot flexibility in this round of allocations...
Also, it's worth remembering that even after Delta's Seattle winter Haneda mess, DOT still gave them MSP-HND over an AA application for DFW. Government agencies don't tend to think in terms of "games" and "punishment" — there are rules and procedures and they evaluate all proposals in accordance with those things. To do any less would invite a lawsuit the government would lose.
While avgeeks might enjoy the idea of the government "punishing" a carrier, it just isn't going to happen.
Feb 8, 2019, 7:47 am
#13
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,394
The better way would be to just toss out the HND restrictions all together, and move to a full open skies for Japan and the US. Then let US carriers and JP carriers fly what they want, and buy the slots they want from other carriers at restricted airports.
DL wants more slots? I'm sure they could buy some slots from one of the smaller carriers who might not be fully utilizing it. Or DL could trade slots at JFK or LAX.
AA and UA would still have an advantage, but we could at least get the DOT out this taking months and months to decide what really could be figured out in one week. A day each for DL, UA, AA, HA to present, and a day for public comments. Done.
DL wants more slots? I'm sure they could buy some slots from one of the smaller carriers who might not be fully utilizing it. Or DL could trade slots at JFK or LAX.
AA and UA would still have an advantage, but we could at least get the DOT out this taking months and months to decide what really could be figured out in one week. A day each for DL, UA, AA, HA to present, and a day for public comments. Done.