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DL applies for Haneda slots: ATL/LAX/MSP

DL applies for Haneda slots: ATL/LAX/MSP

Old May 17, 16, 7:36 am
  #166  
 
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Originally Posted by ashill View Post
HA press release

This reads to me like a pro forma approval of HA's uncontested application for the nighttime slot pair, operated as 3x KOA and 4x HNL. HA's application for the daytime HNL slot is in the competition with everyone else.

The press release makes no mention of dates. Is this effective immediately (i.e. HA can operate the daytime HBL slot it was awarded as a simple, temporary transfer of the existing nighttime slots in addition to this pending completion of the competitive proceeding permanently allocating all six HND rights) or is this the DOT awarding the permanent nighttime routes before announcing the permanent daytime route approvals?

If this is just temporary, it makes perfect sense. Might as well let HA use the uncontested rights in the meantime. Even if it's permanent, it's hard to argue with approving an uncontested application.
It's a permanent allocation. As there were no competing applications for the nighttime slot, DOT went ahead and awarded it to HA despite DL and UA's objections. In their application Hawaiian proposed a start date of October 30.

Last edited by langleyoaker; May 17, 16 at 7:44 am
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Old May 17, 16, 10:28 am
  #167  
 
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So HA is guaranteed to keep a slot, but the nighttime one. This does not say they get the second they asked for. As of now it just shifts some traffic around the islands.

I would guess that the UA is a solid bet for their EWR proposal, and AA/DL neck and neck for the last slot (assuming the current LAX/LAX/SFO slots are kept).

It also is obvious why DL has MSP over ATL. the HND traffic will be O/D Tokyo. And as such will likely not be O/D either ATL or MSP. But MSP is a better connection for most of the east half of the US.The only advantage ATL would have is Atlanta<>Tokyo traffic, which probably does not move the needle.
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Old May 17, 16, 4:44 pm
  #168  
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Originally Posted by readywhenyouare View Post
Some of you have some crow to eat. HA has been awarded KOA-HND. I'm very happy for them. No one has done a better job with HND than HA.
How so? I don't think there was anyone who said HA should be denied the nighttime slot pair. There were plenty of us who said they should never receive a daytime slot pair. Who cares if they are using that one slot pair of seven weekly frequencies to split it between HNL and KOA service. As opposed to HNL only service, or KOA only service.
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Old May 17, 16, 5:16 pm
  #169  
 
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HA will be able to operate two flights to HND for at least a few months -- the daytime HNL slot and the evening HNL/KOA slot.

It'll be interesting to see just how much HA wants to serve KOA. If they don't win a new daytime slot for summer 2017, then HNL would lose capacity.
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Old May 17, 16, 5:19 pm
  #170  
 
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Originally Posted by Longboater View Post
If it was to the benefit of the US economy, KOA-HND would have been approved in either of the last two slot allocations. A nonstop TYO would serve the economy of West Hawai'i well.
Really? Better than any of the other cities mentioned? Here are the GDP's of the metro areas that are up for HND slots excluding Hawaii:
GDP of Atlanta (ATL with DL): $325 billion
GDP of Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP with DL): $236 billion
GDP of LA (LAX with DL and AA): $867 billion
GDP of San Francisco Bay Area (SFO with UA): $412 billion
GDP of Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW with AA): $504 billion
GDP of NYC (EWR with UA): $1.558 trillion

Now here is the GDP of the entire state of Hawaii:
GDP of Hawaii (HNL and KOA with HA): $63.53 billion

There is much more economic activity in all of the other cities, and therefore a flight to one of those cities would have greater benefits.

Now, you could argue that HA would have more O&D passengers on their HND routes. Or you could say that HA has consistently posted very good load factors on their current flight and have flown the route on a consistent basis unlike some of the other carriers. But arguing that West Hawaii needs the route because it will benefit the US economy is ridiculous when the entire state's GDP is about the same as Jacksonville.
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Old May 17, 16, 6:44 pm
  #171  
 
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Originally Posted by DA201 View Post
There is much more economic activity in all of the other cities, and therefore a flight to one of those cities would have greater benefits.
How do you arrive at this conclusion?

GDP is no indication of how attractive a place is for someone to visit and spend money in. Atlanta may have a $325 billion GDP, but it's far from being anywhere near top of any tourist destination list and hardly a destination that one would purposefully set out for.

There is greater economic activity in places that are a destination and where travelers go to spend money, thus benefiting the US economy.

Furthermore, any economic benefit in such a larger GDP area would be a drop in a bucket. It would be much more felt and pronounced in a lower GDP area, as it would be proportionally so much higher.

Edit: GDP does not act as a multiplier of someone's spend in an area. Not sure where did you get ludicrous idea. Instead, you should be looking at stats as to how much a traveler (visitor) spends per day in an area and how many days they stay there on the average (then multiply the two to get average spend, and multiply it by the number of expected travelers that a flight will bring with the area as their destination over the time frame you are looking at), as well as what % of travelers would be destined to there. Than higher for any/all of these numbers, than more benefit there is to economy.

Last edited by RealHJ; May 17, 16 at 7:51 pm
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Old May 18, 16, 8:50 am
  #172  
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Originally Posted by RealHJ View Post
HA does fly to NRT.
HA will fly to NRT in late July. If TYO-HNL/KOA was so important, it should have been flying to NRT even before HND re-opened to long-haul international traffic.

Originally Posted by RealHJ View Post
That's a real misuse of the slots. The real benefit of flying to HND is to get connections to all the countless locations which are only served from HND but not from NRT. That is also where reasonable day time arrival time matters in order to make the onward connections.
If the real benefit of HND were connections, then no need to give DL or HA any HND frequencies, as those airlines have zero online connections available to them at HND.

Originally Posted by RealHJ View Post
If anyone is TYO bound, they can just as easily fly to NRT, which is easier and more convenient (choice of two direct and relatively fast trains) to get to the city from anyway than HND (requires multiple train/metro changes), though yes it's a longer distance away.
While everyone is entitled to their opinion, you're alone on an island with yours, because neither the DoT nor the four airlines vying for HND frequencies agree with you. HND is the preferred TYO airport for O&D traffic, just like LGA and DCA are the preferred airports in their respective metro areas.

Originally Posted by RealHJ View Post
That is why HA needs the slots from HND. In order to get the maximum economic impact for the US and thus have the most public good, the connections at HND are essential, since the onward destinations served from NRT are many less than from HND. In short, NRT makes sense to fly to if your destination is Tokyo. HND is the place to go if you are traveling onwards to elsewhere in Japan. Same vice versa.
In short, you've got it backwards. Might as well post that IAD is preferred over DCA and that JFK is the preferred airport, not LGA.
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Old May 18, 16, 11:12 am
  #173  
 
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Originally Posted by FWAAA View Post
In short, you've got it backwards. Might as well post that IAD is preferred over DCA and that JFK is the preferred airport, not LGA.
Depends on where you're going. For Northern VA (Herndon, Reston, etc.), yes, IAD is the preferred airport. Even if leaving from elsewhere in VA in the morning, driving to IAD on the dedicated two lanes of 267 is easier and faster to get to than being stuck in rush hour morning traffic going to DCA.

It all depends. You just seem to discount all other and different perspectives from yours (it sure does make life easier to put on the blinders and take a myopic stance). Luckily, DoT and others do not agree with you - as they know and understand how the world works. If they did, then HA would not have the original slot it got. But, DoT saw what you fail to see: that it should be awarded where there is the greatest gain to the US economy (and thus US gov't revenues).
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Old May 18, 16, 12:25 pm
  #174  
 
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Originally Posted by RealHJ View Post
Depends on where you're going. For Northern VA (Herndon, Reston, etc.), yes, IAD is the preferred airport. Even if leaving from elsewhere in VA in the morning, driving to IAD on the dedicated two lanes of 267 is easier and faster to get to than being stuck in rush hour morning traffic going to DCA.
Bogus argument. Of course there are places for which IAD or JFK is preferred (as an O&D airport), just like there are places for which HND is preferred. But in all three cities, for the majority of passengers, DCA, LGA, and HND are preferred. And I'm pretty sure you're smart enough to know that is what everyone else means.

It all depends. You just seem to discount all other and different perspectives from yours (it sure does make life easier to put on the blinders and take a myopic stance). Luckily, DoT and others do not agree with you - as they know and understand how the world works. If they did, then HA would not have the original slot it got. But, DoT saw what you fail to see: that it should be awarded where there is the greatest gain to the US economy (and thus US gov't revenues).
Hawaiian's application for the nighttime slot pair was uncontested. No one, including DL, UA, or AA, suggested that HA shouldn't get the nighttime slot, and so the DOT gave it to them.

DL and UA did object to HA getting the nighttime slot now without a promise that HA won't get a daytime slot. The DOT didn't grant that objection, but it was a specious objection anyway. I see no evidence in the DOT's decision that the DOT awarding KOA/HNL-HND has anything to do with whether HA will get a daytime slot.

I guess your argument is that if the DOT agreed with the analysis that the economic benefit to KOA is worth awarding a slot to KOA on the merits (rather than on the lack of contest), they would have given HA nighttime authority for 7x HNL instead of 4x HNL/3x KOA. However, the DOT did no analysis of the economic benefit to Hawaii or any other part of the US in making their decision on this uncontested authority. I'll wager that, should HA not get one (or both!) daytime slot pairs they asked for, the DOT won't object if HA switched the nighttime slot to 7x HNL and dropped KOA.
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Old May 18, 16, 1:13 pm
  #175  
 
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Originally Posted by ashill View Post
Bogus argument. Of course there are places for which IAD or JFK is preferred (as an O&D airport), just like there are places for which HND is preferred. But in all three cities, for the majority of passengers, DCA, LGA, and HND are preferred. And I'm pretty sure you're smart enough to know that is what everyone else means.
Look at the population numbers in DC itself vs. Northern VA and the DC metro area of MD. Where is there more population? Where are there more company HQ and other offices located? So you are saying that the majority prefer an airport with heavy traffic and a longer, or at least slower drive away, vs. one with two dedicated highway lines to it and no rush hour slowdown?

No need to answer, it's a rhetoric question. The point being that it's far more nuanced than you make it out to be.

Originally Posted by ashill View Post
Hawaiian's application for the nighttime slot pair was uncontested. No one, including DL, UA, or AA, suggested that HA shouldn't get the nighttime slot, and so the DOT gave it to them.
It was contested back some two (+/-) years ago. HA asked for two slots. Got one. Don't pretend not to know what I mean and clearly said. I was never speaking about the current application, but about the last heavily contested round for HND-HNL (where, you are conveniently forgetting, that DL also asked for an HND-HNL slot - HA asked for two and DL asked for one).
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Old May 18, 16, 2:41 pm
  #176  
 
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Originally Posted by RealHJ View Post
Look at the population numbers in DC itself vs. Northern VA and the DC metro area of MD. Where is there more population? Where are there more company HQ and other offices located? So you are saying that the majority prefer an airport with heavy traffic and a longer, or at least slower drive away, vs. one with two dedicated highway lines to it and no rush hour slowdown?

No need to answer, it's a rhetoric question. The point being that it's far more nuanced than you make it out to be.
No it's not, because I didn't make it out to be unnuanced. I said that he majority of WAS O&D passengers prefer DCA, which is true, judging by both O&D numbers and revenue. Eg the high-fare shuttles, which go to IAD because IAD is much-preferred to DCA, in your world. "Majority" certainly leaves room for a significant market from IAD.

It was contested back some two (+/-) years ago. HA asked for two slots. Got one. Don't pretend not to know what I mean and clearly said. I was never speaking about the current application, but about the last heavily contested round for HND-HNL (where, you are conveniently forgetting, that DL also asked for an HND-HNL slot - HA asked for two and DL asked for one).
I'm sorry I failed to understand that you, unlike everyone else in this thread, is currently talking about the two-year-old process instead of the current one. The current nighttime slot application was uncontested. My main point was that the uncontested nature of the award means that the DOT made no economic analysis, and so the award to HA says nothingn one way or the other.

The only way this DCA vs IAD distraction matters anyway is as an analogy. It is certainly true that most American travelers, including you, understand that DCA is often thought of as the preferred WAS airport. If it's not preferred for you, fine; just let the analogy pass. TYO is not exactly like WAS and all analogies are imperfect anyway.

This has gone rather absurdly off topic from DL's 2016 HND application.
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Old May 18, 16, 3:13 pm
  #177  
 
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Originally Posted by RealHJ View Post
Look at the population numbers in DC itself vs. Northern VA and the DC metro area of MD. Where is there more population? Where are there more company HQ and other offices located? So you are saying that the majority prefer an airport with heavy traffic and a longer, or at least slower drive away, vs. one with two dedicated highway lines to it and no rush hour slowdown?
IAD is clearly the preferred airport in WAS for so many. This is why AA and DL have the ever popular IAD-JFK shuttle service. Oh wait....
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Old May 18, 16, 4:01 pm
  #178  
 
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Originally Posted by ashill View Post
I'm sorry I failed to understand that you, unlike everyone else in this thread, is currently talking about the two-year-old process instead of the current one. The current nighttime slot application was uncontested. My main point was that the uncontested nature of the award means that the DOT made no economic analysis, and so the award to HA says nothingn one way or the other.
I am not sure what part of the DoT review two years ago you fail to understand. That is the slot in which HA still continues to operate, after all. If there was no economic benefit then HA would not have been awarded the night time slot in the first place, as there was a lot more demand than supply. If there was no economic viable basis for it, HA would not have asked for two slots and DL would not have asked for one. That's all.

Anyhow, let's end this here. Getting too much OT.
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Old May 18, 16, 8:05 pm
  #179  
 
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NRT is most certainly not the preferred Tokyo airport. Anywhere in Tokyo you can get to from NRT on one train is also accessible from HND with at most one interchange at a fraction of the price. There is also the obvious advantage HND has with residents in Yokohama and Kawasaki.
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Old May 20, 16, 11:41 am
  #180  
 
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Looks like MSP-NRT is gone no matter what happens with HND. Unless DL blackmails MAC on paying for it.
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