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Payload Optimized [The Definitive Thread]

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Payload Optimized [The Definitive Thread]

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Old Feb 12, 2018 | 7:26 am
  #91  
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If the nearest alternate is a long distance away it can lead to issues where the aircraft will exceed max landing weight if not weight restricted on takeoff. In the past there were some work arounds for this however the FAA has eliminated those after some airlines abused the option.
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Old Feb 12, 2018 | 8:03 am
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Jeff767
If the nearest alternate is a long distance away it can lead to issues where the aircraft will exceed max landing weight if not weight restricted on takeoff. In the past there were some work arounds for this however the FAA has eliminated those after some airlines abused the option.
Thats really interesting. What was the work around? And what was the abuse?
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Old Feb 12, 2018 | 8:44 am
  #93  
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I'm still not buying the diversion angle here (maybe it is diversion risk in combination with heavy cargo transport). We're talking about an A319 here. A319s with low density configs can theoretically fly JFK<->LHR (not that anyone would actually do that). MSP->BOS can't be more than 1200 miles and that's 1200 miles with tailwinds.

Perhaps Delta has contractually limited MTOW, but it still has to be something more than just having to fly a few hundred miles to a diversion airport.
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Old Feb 12, 2018 | 9:12 am
  #94  
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IRROPS last Wednesday (please note it all worked out for me in the end) due to storms in ATL and was #1 on standby for an MD-90 PBI-ATL. Red coat said no go for me and the flight was going out with 4 empty seats due to weight restrictions.
I did notice 2 non-revs got on at the end (in unifrom) and it went to 2 seats available on the monitor. I will refrain from commenting on that since I don't have all the information.
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Old Feb 12, 2018 | 9:29 am
  #95  
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Originally Posted by ethernal
I'm still not buying the diversion angle here (maybe it is diversion risk in combination with heavy cargo transport). We're talking about an A319 here. A319s with low density configs can theoretically fly JFK<->LHR (not that anyone would actually do that). MSP->BOS can't be more than 1200 miles

You can't dispatch a flight that is planned to arrive at destination over it's Max Landing Weight. Doesn't matter what kind of range the jet has or how much fuel it can carry.. On a day like yesterday with widespread low ceilings and visibility you are likely going to have to select an alernate that is a significant distance from BOS. In fact, they likely had 2 alternates on the flight plan. When dispatched, the flight has to arrive at its destination with sufficient fuel to fly to the furthest alternate while still being under max landing weight.
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Old Feb 12, 2018 | 9:36 am
  #96  
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Originally Posted by Down3Green
You can't dispatch a flight that is planned to arrive at destination over it's Max Landing Weight. Doesn't matter what kind of range the jet has or how much fuel it can carry.. On a day like yesterday with widespread low ceilings and visibility you are likely going to have to select an alernate that is a significant distance from BOS. In fact, they likely had 2 alternates on the flight plan. When dispatched, the flight has to arrive at its destination with sufficient fuel to fly to the furthest alternate while still being under max landing weight.
Are there ever situations where it's impossible to satisfy both constraints simultaneously? In other words, can the fuel required for the farther alternative airport be too much to landing weight at the destination or other alternative airport?
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Old Feb 12, 2018 | 9:49 am
  #97  
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Originally Posted by Down3Green
You can't dispatch a flight that is planned to arrive at destination over it's Max Landing Weight. Doesn't matter what kind of range the jet has or how much fuel it can carry.. On a day like yesterday with widespread low ceilings and visibility you are likely going to have to select an alernate that is a significant distance from BOS. In fact, they likely had 2 alternates on the flight plan. When dispatched, the flight has to arrive at its destination with sufficient fuel to fly to the furthest alternate while still being under max landing weight.
Fair enough, but that must be a hell of a diversion. MZFW versus MLW on an A319 allows for 4 tons of fuel which is enough to fly ~500 mi (admittedly they would need reserve on top of that) - but still, that would be hell of a diversion (and an odd one given the density of airports in the NE).
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Old Feb 12, 2018 | 10:06 am
  #98  
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Originally Posted by ethernal
Fair enough, but that must be a hell of a diversion. MZFW versus MLW on an A319 allows for 4 tons of fuel which is enough to fly ~500 mi (admittedly they would need reserve on top of that) - but still, that would be hell of a diversion (and an odd one given the density of airports in the NE).
Your numbers are pretty good there. A 319 that was loaded with pax and cargo at close to its Max Zero Fuel Weight would have to land with not much more than 8000 lbs of fuel to be under MLW. But I did leave out something in the dispatch requirements that you mentioned and that is standard reserve fuel (in domestic ops, that's an amount that allows 45 minutes of flight at normal cruise). So domestic fuel planning requires fuel to fly to destination, then to fly to the furthest alternate, plus standard reserves.

I don't fly the Bus but I believe standard reserves are in the 3500 to 4000 lb range. On a max zero fuel weight takeoff day, that leaves a little over 4000 lbs for an alternate. On a day like yesterday when you have to look at something like Syracuse for Boston or even further, and fuel gets tight. You can't take less fuel, so you have to remove pax or cargo. Keep in mind that weather at destination determines if you even need an alternate using the 1-2-3 rule and often It's not required.
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Old Feb 12, 2018 | 10:16 am
  #99  
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
Are there ever situations where it's impossible to satisfy both constraints simultaneously? In other words, can the fuel required for the farther alternative airport be too much to landing weight at the destination or other alternative airport?
Sure, it's possible, but fairly rare. Payload Optimization tends to fall into two instances: One is when trying to protect max landing weight on bad weather days at destination that require distant alternates. The other is trying to protect Takeoff weight that is limited by runway or climb restraints often on hot days or high altitude airports
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Old Feb 12, 2018 | 11:21 am
  #100  
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Originally Posted by SamOF


Thats really interesting. What was the work around? And what was the abuse?
You could plan additional fuel that you would assume would be burned due to holding vectors in poor Wx. Some airlines called it city maneuvering fuel. You could then land overweight if you did not get delayed and conduct a overweight inspection. The FAA now has clamped down on overweight landings even though the airframe may be certified for the higher weight with no structural changes. Its just paperwork. Airlines often purchase with a lower landing weight for a lower price and to reduce landing fees.
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Old Feb 12, 2018 | 11:37 am
  #101  
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Originally Posted by ethernal
Fair enough, but that must be a hell of a diversion. MZFW versus MLW on an A319 allows for 4 tons of fuel which is enough to fly ~500 mi (admittedly they would need reserve on top of that) - but still, that would be hell of a diversion (and an odd one given the density of airports in the NE).
You would have 8000lbs available. 4000 lbs would be considered unusable as emergency only fuel. Now you need fuel to fly from missed approach at your destination to a legal alternate. The missed approach and climb using near full power will make a big dent in the remaining 4000 lbs. You then need fuel for the flight time to the alternate plus 45 minutes more. I fly a aircraft with slightly less then twice the fuel burn of a A319. We often require 22 to 26,000 lbs of fuel at arrival in bad weather. In addition some pilots want to carry a little extra for mom and the kids above the minimum requirements.
You are also overlooking that the max landing weight may be reduced by projected runway contamination, winds and notams at the destination airport. Further reductions may occur due to MEL items such as anti skid, fuel pump or a thrust reverser inop. Boston as a example may only be conducting arrivals to runway 27. If the runway is contaminated even a A319 can have a reduced allowable weight on 7000 feet. The reduction could be large.
Airlines want to carry every lb they can. It’s how they make money. They don’t arbitrarily load restrict flights.

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Old Feb 12, 2018 | 11:52 am
  #102  
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
Are there ever situations where it's impossible to satisfy both constraints simultaneously? In other words, can the fuel required for the farther alternative airport be too much to landing weight at the destination or other alternative airport?
I'll chime in with the other replies (as an amateur. )

With virtually no passengers, I think this would be impossible (or nearly so with some really bizarre weather around). In other words, with little cargo, you only need sufficient fuel to carry the nearly-empty plane and that fuel, which is not as much as the fuel needed to carry 100+ people and their stuff and the plane and that fuel.

A lighter plane needs less fuel to get off the ground and fly to the destination plus possibly fly around to find a place to land, and if such diversion is unnecessary, due to the lighter load of people/cargo and correspondingly less fuel, that plane may be below maximum landing weight.

One time I was on United Express going DAY-ORD, and they had to offload 6 people! That is a lot for a RJ (forgot what type but it was 2-2 seating). The reason was bad weather in ORD. They didn't explain why they would need to offload 6 people for such a short flight, but I was able to figure it out later by reading about this type of situation. I volunteered, got a UA voucher and was put on USAirways via PIT to my destination. I'm sure today they would just tell people to sit there in Dayton until tomorrow.
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Old Jun 14, 2018 | 3:02 pm
  #103  
 
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On DL2881 (A320 SMF-> MSP) and they are threatening to put bags on later flights (this is the last direct of the day). All I know is that I would be fuming if my bag was put on a later flight because it didnt fit in the overhead bins. I board with SKY so not going to affect me but I certainly see people getting pissed.

If it was an MX issue, I would totally understand but if it was cargo. I would not be a happy camper about my luggage getting taken away and hoping it showed up later.
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Old Jun 14, 2018 | 7:06 pm
  #104  
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You should have seen the gate house for my MSP-AUA A320 payload optimized not too log ago.....people were freaking out.

what is with these A320s and this issue?
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Old Jun 14, 2018 | 10:00 pm
  #105  
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Originally Posted by MNvikesNM
On DL2881 (A320 SMF-> MSP) and they are threatening to put bags on later flights (this is the last direct of the day). All I know is that I would be fuming if my bag was put on a later flight because it didnt fit in the overhead bins. I board with SKY so not going to affect me but I certainly see people getting pissed.

If it was an MX issue, I would totally understand but if it was cargo. I would not be a happy camper about my luggage getting taken away and hoping it showed up later.
When a flight is payload optimized, cargo is pulled way before bags. Bags are almost the last option (behind revenue pax), so if they're being pulled, the aircraft is very close to max takeoff weight.
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