Payload Optimized [The Definitive Thread]
#91


Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,169
If the nearest alternate is a long distance away it can lead to issues where the aircraft will exceed max landing weight if not weight restricted on takeoff. In the past there were some work arounds for this however the FAA has eliminated those after some airlines abused the option.
#92




Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: DCA
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If the nearest alternate is a long distance away it can lead to issues where the aircraft will exceed max landing weight if not weight restricted on takeoff. In the past there were some work arounds for this however the FAA has eliminated those after some airlines abused the option.
#93


Join Date: Feb 2017
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I'm still not buying the diversion angle here (maybe it is diversion risk in combination with heavy cargo transport). We're talking about an A319 here. A319s with low density configs can theoretically fly JFK<->LHR (not that anyone would actually do that). MSP->BOS can't be more than 1200 miles and that's 1200 miles with tailwinds.
Perhaps Delta has contractually limited MTOW, but it still has to be something more than just having to fly a few hundred miles to a diversion airport.
Perhaps Delta has contractually limited MTOW, but it still has to be something more than just having to fly a few hundred miles to a diversion airport.
#94




Join Date: Apr 2011
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IRROPS last Wednesday (please note it all worked out for me in the end) due to storms in ATL and was #1 on standby for an MD-90 PBI-ATL. Red coat said no go for me and the flight was going out with 4 empty seats due to weight restrictions.
I did notice 2 non-revs got on at the end (in unifrom) and it went to 2 seats available on the monitor. I will refrain from commenting on that since I don't have all the information.
I did notice 2 non-revs got on at the end (in unifrom) and it went to 2 seats available on the monitor. I will refrain from commenting on that since I don't have all the information.
#95


Join Date: Mar 2008
Programs: DL-Pyrite Medallion
Posts: 319
I'm still not buying the diversion angle here (maybe it is diversion risk in combination with heavy cargo transport). We're talking about an A319 here. A319s with low density configs can theoretically fly JFK<->LHR (not that anyone would actually do that). MSP->BOS can't be more than 1200 miles
You can't dispatch a flight that is planned to arrive at destination over it's Max Landing Weight. Doesn't matter what kind of range the jet has or how much fuel it can carry.. On a day like yesterday with widespread low ceilings and visibility you are likely going to have to select an alernate that is a significant distance from BOS. In fact, they likely had 2 alternates on the flight plan. When dispatched, the flight has to arrive at its destination with sufficient fuel to fly to the furthest alternate while still being under max landing weight.
#96
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You can't dispatch a flight that is planned to arrive at destination over it's Max Landing Weight. Doesn't matter what kind of range the jet has or how much fuel it can carry.. On a day like yesterday with widespread low ceilings and visibility you are likely going to have to select an alernate that is a significant distance from BOS. In fact, they likely had 2 alternates on the flight plan. When dispatched, the flight has to arrive at its destination with sufficient fuel to fly to the furthest alternate while still being under max landing weight.
#97


Join Date: Feb 2017
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You can't dispatch a flight that is planned to arrive at destination over it's Max Landing Weight. Doesn't matter what kind of range the jet has or how much fuel it can carry.. On a day like yesterday with widespread low ceilings and visibility you are likely going to have to select an alernate that is a significant distance from BOS. In fact, they likely had 2 alternates on the flight plan. When dispatched, the flight has to arrive at its destination with sufficient fuel to fly to the furthest alternate while still being under max landing weight.
#98


Join Date: Mar 2008
Programs: DL-Pyrite Medallion
Posts: 319
Fair enough, but that must be a hell of a diversion. MZFW versus MLW on an A319 allows for 4 tons of fuel which is enough to fly ~500 mi (admittedly they would need reserve on top of that) - but still, that would be hell of a diversion (and an odd one given the density of airports in the NE).
I don't fly the Bus but I believe standard reserves are in the 3500 to 4000 lb range. On a max zero fuel weight takeoff day, that leaves a little over 4000 lbs for an alternate. On a day like yesterday when you have to look at something like Syracuse for Boston or even further, and fuel gets tight. You can't take less fuel, so you have to remove pax or cargo. Keep in mind that weather at destination determines if you even need an alternate using the 1-2-3 rule and often It's not required.
#99


Join Date: Mar 2008
Programs: DL-Pyrite Medallion
Posts: 319
Sure, it's possible, but fairly rare. Payload Optimization tends to fall into two instances: One is when trying to protect max landing weight on bad weather days at destination that require distant alternates. The other is trying to protect Takeoff weight that is limited by runway or climb restraints often on hot days or high altitude airports
#100


Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,169
You could plan additional fuel that you would assume would be burned due to holding vectors in poor Wx. Some airlines called it city maneuvering fuel. You could then land overweight if you did not get delayed and conduct a overweight inspection. The FAA now has clamped down on overweight landings even though the airframe may be certified for the higher weight with no structural changes. Its just paperwork. Airlines often purchase with a lower landing weight for a lower price and to reduce landing fees.
#101


Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,169
Fair enough, but that must be a hell of a diversion. MZFW versus MLW on an A319 allows for 4 tons of fuel which is enough to fly ~500 mi (admittedly they would need reserve on top of that) - but still, that would be hell of a diversion (and an odd one given the density of airports in the NE).
You are also overlooking that the max landing weight may be reduced by projected runway contamination, winds and notams at the destination airport. Further reductions may occur due to MEL items such as anti skid, fuel pump or a thrust reverser inop. Boston as a example may only be conducting arrivals to runway 27. If the runway is contaminated even a A319 can have a reduced allowable weight on 7000 feet. The reduction could be large.
Airlines want to carry every lb they can. It’s how they make money. They don’t arbitrarily load restrict flights.
#102
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)With virtually no passengers, I think this would be impossible (or nearly so with some really bizarre weather around). In other words, with little cargo, you only need sufficient fuel to carry the nearly-empty plane and that fuel, which is not as much as the fuel needed to carry 100+ people and their stuff and the plane and that fuel.
A lighter plane needs less fuel to get off the ground and fly to the destination plus possibly fly around to find a place to land, and if such diversion is unnecessary, due to the lighter load of people/cargo and correspondingly less fuel, that plane may be below maximum landing weight.
One time I was on United Express going DAY-ORD, and they had to offload 6 people! That is a lot for a RJ (forgot what type but it was 2-2 seating). The reason was bad weather in ORD. They didn't explain why they would need to offload 6 people for such a short flight, but I was able to figure it out later by reading about this type of situation. I volunteered, got a UA voucher and was put on USAirways via PIT to my destination. I'm sure today they would just tell people to sit there in Dayton until tomorrow.
#103
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: MSP
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On DL2881 (A320 SMF-> MSP) and they are threatening to put bags on later flights (this is the last direct of the day). All I know is that I would be fuming if my bag was put on a later flight because it didnt fit in the overhead bins. I board with SKY so not going to affect me but I certainly see people getting pissed.
If it was an MX issue, I would totally understand but if it was cargo. I would not be a happy camper about my luggage getting taken away and hoping it showed up later.
If it was an MX issue, I would totally understand but if it was cargo. I would not be a happy camper about my luggage getting taken away and hoping it showed up later.
#104
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You should have seen the gate house for my MSP-AUA A320 payload optimized not too log ago.....people were freaking out.
what is with these A320s and this issue?
what is with these A320s and this issue?
#105




Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Atlanta, GA (KATL)
Programs: Delta SkyMiles KM, Sky Club/Priority Pass, SPG Gold, HHonors Gold
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On DL2881 (A320 SMF-> MSP) and they are threatening to put bags on later flights (this is the last direct of the day). All I know is that I would be fuming if my bag was put on a later flight because it didnt fit in the overhead bins. I board with SKY so not going to affect me but I certainly see people getting pissed.
If it was an MX issue, I would totally understand but if it was cargo. I would not be a happy camper about my luggage getting taken away and hoping it showed up later.
If it was an MX issue, I would totally understand but if it was cargo. I would not be a happy camper about my luggage getting taken away and hoping it showed up later.

