Delta FA's to remain union free

Old Nov 18, 11, 10:22 pm
  #46  
 
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Point one... (On topic) - this is great news, and means a much better work product for Delta.

Point two... (still quasi-on topic) - One has to wonder if unions were aware, at the time of passing each, they forced their own obsolescence with the support of the FLSA, OSHA, EEOC, Minimum Wage, and other similar laws... One has to wonder if they realized, at the time, that the valid and important protections they offered would no longer be needed (thanks to the Gov't), and that in the future (now) they'd be simply negotiating and striking based on entitlements (pay, insurance, retirement, etc...).

I completely support an employee's right to unionize. I do not (IN ANY WAY) support a union's right to require such membership to work there, nor do I support any other dues collection method aside from individual billing. (No payroll deduction, especially no governmental collection, etc.)
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Old Nov 18, 11, 10:30 pm
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Originally Posted by BamaGirl View Post
I'm sorry, I don't understand. In my work world, being 'more efficient' is something that we strive for. How is that a bad thing?
Originally Posted by jamesteroh View Post
I was wondering the same thing. Effiiency is something a business strives for.
My understanding is that was said tongue in cheek
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Old Nov 18, 11, 10:39 pm
  #48  
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Originally Posted by jamesteroh View Post
For unprofessionally dressed I was referring to Southwest FA's. If they are flying out of JFK, they couldn't be Southwest FA"s because WN doesn't fly out of JFK. (and to be fair to WN's FA's they are always very friendly even though the dumb jokes get old fast).
Nope. Was not southwest. I don't know which carriers they are from. I presume some are JetBlue, some Delta, and other airlines.
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Old Nov 18, 11, 10:43 pm
  #49  
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Originally Posted by hjime223 View Post
I agree with this. I can not understand why former NW employees would want to stay unionized when they are really being screwed over as non unionized Delta FA's are earning more money without having to pay the union.
Lots not paint it as broadly as PMNW and PMDL here.

I have several friends that are PMNW flight attendants. Many of them voted for the union, and many voted against the union.

While PMNW was union and PMDL was not, there were many PMNW FAs that voted no and many PMDL FAs that voted yes.

There is also more than simply earning money with the union - things such as work rules were a big part of it. A very veteran NW FA would rather have all their flights on a line rather than dealing with A Days as PMDL FAs have.

To simplify it would be an injustice to each side.

(fwiw, this is said by someone who sided with the "No Way AFA" camp...)
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Old Nov 19, 11, 1:46 am
  #50  
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Originally Posted by jamesteroh View Post
IIRC Delta has the best paid FA's in the industry.
Nope, DL's FAs are not the best paid. At top of scale, WN FAs earn about $63/hr, followed by CO at about $51/$50/hr (Intl/Dom) and AA at $49.14/$46/hr. In fourth place is DL at $47/45.73/hr (Intl/Dom). PMNW were near the bottom at $42/$40.56/hr, and will see large pay raises as a result of the outcome of the AFA vote.

The productivity I mentioned earlier stems from the fact that DL FAs (and PMNW FAs) can be scheduled to work a max of 100 hours per month - a scheduling maximum that is exceeded only by B6 and WN. Without a labor contract, they will have fewer hours where they are paid yet not flying.

Originally Posted by jamesteroh View Post
WN also posted a loss for Q3. They had a big cost advantage for years with their fuel hedges. If WN's costs are lower than Deltas then their fares should be reflecting that as well.
Yes, WN recorded a large paper loss for the quarter based on the market value of fuel hedges that had not yet matured. That loss may be reversed or may become real (as in real money lost) in future quarters when the hedges mature. Fares? Airlines will charge the fares they can get away with regardless of their costs. And yes, WN's fares are no longer always the lowest and some of their walkup fares are beginning to resemble legacy gouges.

Originally Posted by jamesteroh View Post
There are other ways a non-union company can stay competitive as well. Look at all the petty complaints the AFA filed such as no size 28 designer dresses and not being able to use carts in first class. Stuff like that costs an employer money.
Agreed.

Originally Posted by jamesteroh View Post
WN and Jet Blue and F9 are also going to have lower costs than Delta seeing they don't have catering expenses, they don't have the expense of lounges, they don't have gates at some of the more expensive airports like ORD and JFK, they don't provide international service.....
Agreed. Of course, on the typical DL itinerary that competes with WN, DL provides little in the way of food. What meal is served to a DL passenger flying MCO-BNA? On that trip, both airlines serve soft drinks and sell booze (and yes, DL offers F passengers free booze).
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Old Nov 19, 11, 5:40 am
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Originally Posted by mersk862 View Post
Lots not paint it as broadly as PMNW and PMDL here.

I have several friends that are PMNW flight attendants. Many of them voted for the union, and many voted against the union.

While PMNW was union and PMDL was not, there were many PMNW FAs that voted no and many PMDL FAs that voted yes.

There is also more than simply earning money with the union - things such as work rules were a big part of it. A very veteran NW FA would rather have all their flights on a line rather than dealing with A Days as PMDL FAs have.

To simplify it would be an injustice to each side.

(fwiw, this is said by someone who sided with the "No Way AFA" camp...)

What do you mean "work rules"? How were NW FA unionized work rules different then Delta non-union FA's? curious about details

And what do you mean by "flights on a line" vs "A days"?

Trying to catch up and understand..
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Old Nov 19, 11, 7:18 am
  #52  
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excellent news!
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Old Nov 19, 11, 7:41 am
  #53  
 
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Originally Posted by FWAAA View Post
Nope, DL's FAs are not the best paid. At top of scale, WN FAs earn about $63/hr, followed by CO at about $51/$50/hr (Intl/Dom) and AA at $49.14/$46/hr. In fourth place is DL at $47/45.73/hr (Intl/Dom). PMNW were near the bottom at $42/$40.56/hr, and will see large pay raises as a result of the outcome of the AFA vote.
What is interesting is that when one considers Delta's industry lagging pay, what opportunity is there for any remedy? Sure, I guess there is some informal employee representation, but there is no formal representation so they are left in the position of taking what they are given.

Originally Posted by FWAAA View Post
The productivity I mentioned earlier stems from the fact that DL FAs (and PMNW FAs) can be scheduled to work a max of 100 hours per month - a scheduling maximum that is exceeded only by B6 and WN. Without a labor contract, they will have fewer hours where they are paid yet not flying.
My observation as a passenger is that all WN employees work diligently in exchange for industry leading pay and that management demands and schedules such that productivity is high.
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Old Nov 19, 11, 8:53 am
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Originally Posted by hazelrah View Post
What is interesting is that when one considers Delta's industry lagging pay, what opportunity is there for any remedy? Sure, I guess there is some informal employee representation, but there is no formal representation so they are left in the position of taking what they are given.



My observation as a passenger is that all WN employees work diligently in exchange for industry leading pay and that management demands and schedules such that productivity is high.
i agree, when is the last time you saw a legacy FA scurrying upstream after a flight cleaning seat back pockets?

this will all pass. the nw fa's are receiving a considerable raise when you consider the hourly bump AND the impact of union dues. for the current NLRB to side with Delta must mean the election was extremely fair.
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Old Nov 19, 11, 8:53 am
  #55  
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Originally Posted by hazelrah View Post
What is interesting is that when one considers Delta's industry lagging pay, what opportunity is there for any remedy? Sure, I guess there is some informal employee representation, but there is no formal representation so they are left in the position of taking what they are given.

My observation as a passenger is that all WN employees work diligently in exchange for industry leading pay and that management demands and schedules such that productivity is high.
Like most of your posts, its disingenuous to draw conclusions from limited facts. You can't rank flight attendant compensation solely on hourly pay, since that only applies to a portion of the time the employees are working. Pay must be evaluated in conjunction with work rules and per diems to fully understand who makes really the most and who makes the least.

WN flight attendants higher hourly flight pay comes at the expense of greater time spent on the ground not being paid during each trip because of the shorter average stage length. On a take home basis, AA flight attendants are by far the best compensated since they have relatively high per flight hour compensation, the most restrictive work rules, and longer flights with less unpaid time per trip.
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Old Nov 19, 11, 9:22 am
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Winkdaddy View Post
What do you mean "work rules"? How were NW FA unionized work rules different then Delta non-union FA's? curious about details

And what do you mean by "flights on a line" vs "A days"?

Trying to catch up and understand..
Not sure on specifics, but I believe with the NW AFA contract, they had provisions about rest time that was greater than the FAA minimum and maximum hours they could work in a day being less than FAA minimum. I think (but don't hold this as Gospel) they had a 9 hour minimum overnight (there were some exemptions; FAA is an 8 hour min) and a 14 hour time-in to time-out day (versus FAA max of 16 I believe).

A Days vs. Traditional Reserve is the way reserve was done. Again, hopefully one of the FAs can chime in on A Days (since I'm more familiar with the PMNW system), but all FAs get 3-6 A Days a month, where they are essentially on call to fly. Thus, a PMDL FA might have 3 4-day lines (where they know their schedule in advance and can pick it based on seniority) and a set of 3 A Days where they have to be available to fly but they might not.

At NW, it was straight reserve. If you were a senior FA, you wouldn't be sitting reserve unless you bid on it - you got the routes you wanted on the days you wanted. All the junior FAs pretty much ended up sitting reserve, which means sitting at home waiting for a phone call - picking up a line was extremely rare (though a lot of my friends might have lines in December...bidding gets complicated in that one month...). Sitting reserve means you're not getting paid (unless you get assigned On-Premise Reserve, when you actually have to be at the airport and could be assigned to a flight leaving in 30 minutes).

Essentially, if DL keeps A Days (which it sounds like they will), senior PMNW FAs will have to do some time sitting reserve, which because it can often lead to less hours and/or less desirable trips (being senior and normally working long hauls, but now having to do a 3-night tour of the Midwest in a MD-88 might not be appealing to them at all) might have caused some of the no-votes as it would be an impact on their quality of life.
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Old Nov 19, 11, 10:04 am
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How ridiculous is the AFA press release .... "denies the Delta Flight Attendants any say over their working conditions". Do you seriously give the FAs this little credit or question their intelligence? They just shot themselves and proved all FAs right in voting the way they did....
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Old Nov 19, 11, 10:06 am
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Originally Posted by mersk862 View Post
but all FAs get 3-6 A Days a month, where they are essentially on call to fly. Thus, a PMDL FA might have 3 4-day lines (where they know their schedule in advance and can pick it based on seniority) and a set of 3 A Days where they have to be available to fly but they might not.
Originally Posted by mersk862 View Post
Essentially, if DL keeps A Days (which it sounds like they will), senior PMNW FAs will have to do some time sitting reserve, which because it can often lead to less hours and/or less desirable trips (being senior and normally working long hauls, but now having to do a 3-night tour of the Midwest in a MD-88 might not be appealing to them at all) might have caused some of the no-votes as it would be an impact on their quality of life.
Actually, not correct. The number of FAs on "A" Days ("A" stands for "Availability") varies from month to month, base to base. It depends on the amount of flying for the base that month, the number of FAs on sick or vacation leave, etc. Usually, the most senior and most of the middle seniority people never get A days. Can't remember the percentages, but I am tempted to say, IIRC, only the bottom third or less of a base gets A days.
Overall, the A days system is great for the junior folks because it allows them to actually get a "line". These junior folks at PMNW or AA or UA are pretty much on reserve for the first decade of their career, whereas a first-year hire at Delta can already hold a line (and plan their lives), while their 'reserve' requirements are limited to 3-6 days a month. It also doesn't hurt the senior mamas or the middle-of-the-pack either because they will never get A days. The only ones who may view it negatively are those sitting at the border (say at the 60-80th percentile) who may not have had reserve days at PMNW, but may be given A days for some months of the year...
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Old Nov 19, 11, 10:13 am
  #59  
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Originally Posted by adamj023 View Post
Nope. Was not southwest. I don't know which carriers they are from. I presume some are JetBlue, some Delta, and other airlines.
Deltas FA's always dress professionally (with the exception of last month when they could wear jeans for breast cancer awareness and even then the few that did wear jeans I saw had on nice jeans and the pink polo). With Southwest their FA's can wear shorts and it is not uncommon to see a WN FA wearing a pair of shorts, a polo shirts and white socks and white tennis shoes even on a monday morning flight. You will find most passengers dressed more professionally on a monday morning flight than the FA's on Southwest.
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Old Nov 19, 11, 10:20 am
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