Delta FA's to remain union free
Nov 22, 2011, 10:09 am
#106
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: LAS
Programs: PA FT, TW Gold, NW/CO PE, VK Eagleflyer
Posts: 7,173
Nov 22, 2011, 10:38 am
#107
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Likely being followed...
Programs: DYKWIA Extraordinaire. TrollSlayer Mega Diamond. [insert esoteric sounding status level(s) here]
Posts: 5,240
Nov 22, 2011, 10:51 am
#108
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,679
That was a GREAT off duty FA you had to do that. Why would someone yell at an employee going out of their way like that? By the off duty FA doing that it kept many passengers happy (who are responsible for paying their pay) and left a good image of their employer and FA's in general.
In that case I would have definitely given the off duty FA a job well done certficiate if I had one and emailed Delta telling them how lucky they are to have employees like her.
In that case I would have definitely given the off duty FA a job well done certficiate if I had one and emailed Delta telling them how lucky they are to have employees like her.
When working off the clock becomes the norm and you have no contract then management is empowered press employees into unpaid service. This is particularly problematic in block time situations where many hourly employee protections do not apply.
That being said, I'm very pro-contract, but indifferent about unions. You don't have to have a union to have contracts with labor. I for one never work with out a contract.
Nov 22, 2011, 1:24 pm
#109
Join Date: Jul 2004
Programs: DL; AA; UA; CO; LHLX; NZ; QR; EK; BA
Posts: 7,408
While it is admirable or desirable to try to claw back all those concessions, it comes with a price - revenues will have to increase to support those increased costs, and revenues will only increase with more 'nickel-and-diming', more consolidation, more cutbacks in capacity, etc., in order to force prices up....There is no such thing as a 'free lunch' and the sooner airline employees and passengers realize and accept that, the better off everyone will be...
I wouldn't have done that in the FA's situation. Union or non-union. FAs are hourly employees. They already get the shaft with block time. As people often have said, Delta is not a charity. Well, neither are it's workers. If Delta wants FAs to engage in employee activities then they need to pay them for that time.
When working off the clock becomes the norm and you have no contract then management is empowered press employees into unpaid service. This is particularly problematic in block time situations where many hourly employee protections do not apply.
When working off the clock becomes the norm and you have no contract then management is empowered press employees into unpaid service. This is particularly problematic in block time situations where many hourly employee protections do not apply.
Last edited by ClipperDelta; Nov 22, 2011 at 1:31 pm
Nov 22, 2011, 1:49 pm
#110
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,679
I understood that, but one day's volunteered can turn into the next days voluntold. No pay, no work.
Nov 22, 2011, 2:28 pm
#111
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toledo, OH
Programs: Delta DM & MM, Hilton DM, Marriott gold, Hyatt Globalist, Alaska 75K, Wyndham Diamond,
Posts: 15,399
I wouldn't have done that in the FA's situation. Union or non-union. FAs are hourly employees. They already get the shaft with block time. As people often have said, Delta is not a charity. Well, neither are it's workers. If Delta wants FAs to engage in employee activities then they need to pay them for that time.
When working off the clock becomes the norm and you have no contract then management is empowered press employees into unpaid service. This is particularly problematic in block time situations where many hourly employee protections do not apply.
That being said, I'm very pro-contract, but indifferent about unions. You don't have to have a union to have contracts with labor. I for one never work with out a contract.
When working off the clock becomes the norm and you have no contract then management is empowered press employees into unpaid service. This is particularly problematic in block time situations where many hourly employee protections do not apply.
That being said, I'm very pro-contract, but indifferent about unions. You don't have to have a union to have contracts with labor. I for one never work with out a contract.
It sounds like the FA wasn't asked to help board the plane, she did it to assist the passengers (THE PEOPLE WHO PAY HER SALARY) and it helped out her coworkers as well. Who knows, the FA that helped out may have had someone help her out when she was late before.
While I don't expect an employee to work off the clock, it is appreciated it they get a call at 4:58 and will stay until 5:05 to help out a client and I also don't dock those employees if they are five minutes late because traffic was bad or they overslept by a few minutes. I am sure many employees in an office won't dock themselves the time to take an occassional personal phone call, to send a quick personal email, to order lunch while on company time for a pick up order to get while they are still on the clock.
Nov 22, 2011, 2:38 pm
#112
Join Date: Nov 2011
Programs: DL GM, HH Diamond, Priority Club Platinum, National Emerald Exec
Posts: 11
Alternative headline:
Delta Flight Attendants to remain accountable, concerned, and motivated. Extremely low margin operation avoids unsustainable contracts.
This is wonderful news.
Delta Flight Attendants to remain accountable, concerned, and motivated. Extremely low margin operation avoids unsustainable contracts.
This is wonderful news.
Nov 22, 2011, 3:00 pm
#113
Suspended
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,621
Nov 22, 2011, 3:36 pm
#114
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,679
While I don't expect an employee to work off the clock, it is appreciated it they get a call at 4:58 and will stay until 5:05 to help out a client and I also don't dock those employees if they are five minutes late because traffic was bad or they overslept by a few minutes. I am sure many employees in an office won't dock themselves the time to take an occassional personal phone call, to send a quick personal email, to order lunch while on company time for a pick up order to get while they are still on the clock.
Nov 22, 2011, 4:27 pm
#115
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,806
It does not appear from the OP's story that it was Delta management that 'forced' the off-duty PMNW FA to help board the flight, but rather, the FA chose to do it voluntarily. The 'manager' who came on to reprimand the crew could also have been PMDL who was afraid that this 'mixing' of PMNW and PMDL FAs (not allowed while the NMB was still deliberating the interference claims) would create trouble with the union and the NMB....
I know people hate when I share my stories, but I'm going to anyway.
Years ago at NW, we (FAs) would always "help out" where needed. Then we had a situation happen. A male FA was "helping out" the company by helping another crew board their plane so it could get out faster. Nice FA. This FA tripped leaving the aircraft and broke his foot. I remember him being wheeled into in-flight service. The FA was NOT covered by insurance because he was NOT scheduled to work that flight. When we (FAs) asked the company about it, their response? "He could have always said no". (To helping out)
Another thing that we used to do. While on our own time, we used to get up and help the working crew do service, because NW always scheduled minimum crew. Then after the broken foot incident, we refused to help out on our own time crews that were short staffed. And those crews would tell a volunteer to sit down and not help.
You see, the company was saving a bundle by all of our "volunteer" work. Not to mention it is illegal to work additional time over over a maximum duty day or x amount of hours in a row. If FAA came on board and requested schedules and found out that the FA was illegal to fly or going to be illegal for their next trip, the FAA could not only fine the individual FA, but also have them pulled from their next trip for violation of rest regulations.
Sooooo, you tell me. Is it worth really worth it for the FAs to work for free?
DL is a great company. If the FA is willing to help out in a boarding situation, DL should gladly apply that time to the FA's schedule so that they can get paid for working.
"Problem is, the industry is not the same as it was 5 or 10 or 15 years ago, and it will never be the same again as the 'good ol' days'. Fuel prices are not going to decline much, and if/when they do come down, it will be because of reduced economic activity, and that certainly does not help the airlines either.
While it is admirable or desirable to try to claw back all those concessions, it comes with a price - revenues will have to increase to support those increased costs, and revenues will only increase with more 'nickel-and-diming', more consolidation, more cutbacks in capacity, etc., in order to force prices up....There is no such thing as a 'free lunch' and the sooner airline employees and passengers realize and accept that, the better off everyone will be..."
And yet our pilot's have virtually restored their pay. I never had a free lunch, with the exception of contractual meals.
Nov 22, 2011, 4:31 pm
#116
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,806
They aren't salary, they are hourly. I understand why the FA did it and the friction had more to do with crew mixing, I'm just saying, I wouldn't and I think it sets a bad precedent for the workforce as a whole.
Yeah, DL isn't particularly forgiving to the front line folks, just ask GAs that close the door a minute late, TAs that don't force customers to use the kiosk or a FA that reports to the station late. What you need to keep in mind is the FAs work 30-60 minutes before a flight unpaid. Their clock doesn't start until door close and/or brake release. When they land they are off the clock before a single passenger has left the plane. The days when the wages and benefits took that time into account are long gone. All this made sense in the 70's and 80's. But we have the technology to actually track this kind of thing now. I just think the bean counters and executives would blow their stack if they actually had to pay FAs for actual time spent doing the work of the company.
Yeah, DL isn't particularly forgiving to the front line folks, just ask GAs that close the door a minute late, TAs that don't force customers to use the kiosk or a FA that reports to the station late. What you need to keep in mind is the FAs work 30-60 minutes before a flight unpaid. Their clock doesn't start until door close and/or brake release. When they land they are off the clock before a single passenger has left the plane. The days when the wages and benefits took that time into account are long gone. All this made sense in the 70's and 80's. But we have the technology to actually track this kind of thing now. I just think the bean counters and executives would blow their stack if they actually had to pay FAs for actual time spent doing the work of the company.
Nov 22, 2011, 4:33 pm
#117
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Atlanta
Programs: DL:PM - Reserve, 2MM, FC, RW; HH: SILVER MR: SILVER
Posts: 1,225
Congratulations to both Delta and the Flight Attendants for finally getting closure on this after almost a year of review.
Hopefully, this will pave the road for better integration of the FAs and policies going forward, and be the cornerstone that allows everyone at Delta to focus on the challenge of transforming Delta's Customer Service to once again be rated #1 in North America.
Hopefully, this will pave the road for better integration of the FAs and policies going forward, and be the cornerstone that allows everyone at Delta to focus on the challenge of transforming Delta's Customer Service to once again be rated #1 in North America.
Nov 22, 2011, 5:10 pm
#118
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: JFK
Programs: Delta Skymiles, Hilton
Posts: 251
I have been flying in and out of SEA for past 4 years and always noticed the NWA carts in the aisle and the A319/320/330 aircraft with the NW registration number.There was always a lack of that southern Atlanta hospitality on those flights with the FA crew, so I get they were probably all NWA FA's.
Out of curiosity, were most flights from MSP/DTW to SEA with NW FA's and the ATL/CVG/SLC flights to SEA with DL FA's?
Out of curiosity, were most flights from MSP/DTW to SEA with NW FA's and the ATL/CVG/SLC flights to SEA with DL FA's?
Nov 22, 2011, 5:46 pm
#119
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: New York, NY
Programs: Delta, American, United, Lufthansa, BA, Hilton, Marriott, Hyatt, Holiday Inn, Hertz, AVIS, Sixt
Posts: 14
Yes, the PMNW FAs did receive parity with the PMDL FAs in pay. But, so far that's it.
The PMNW FAs will continue to fly under their contract rules and PMDL FAs will continue to fly under their DL work rules.
PMNW FAs will not be giving up their contract until both groups are finally merged as one. It doesn't look like the two groups will be merged until approximately until May 2012. It will take months for DL to be able to get future flying straightened out. Which bases need to be closed, merging groups in bases that exist for both groups. Which bases will be able to handled future flying. Which bases need to be increased in size or decreased in size. And also to get the FAs into bases.
While the PMNW FAs are making a bit more money, both groups are still flying under concessionary wages. Nobody is making the money that we used to make. So far, no one is getting raises, only restoration in bits and pieces.
Both groups are hoping that DL will take some of the good contractual language from the PMNW FA contract and add it to the DL work rules.
Example, PMNW FAs are paid for actual hours flown where as PMDL FAs are paid by averaging flight hours. The PMNW FAs generally make more money though where paid less before the 19th. Holiday pay is more in the contract than in the work rules. Rest rules are more favorable in the contract than in the work rules. Duty day limitations are more favorable in the contract than in the work rules. Extended duty pay is also more favorable in the contract than in the work rules.
It will be interesting to see how it all works out.
The PMNW FAs will continue to fly under their contract rules and PMDL FAs will continue to fly under their DL work rules.
PMNW FAs will not be giving up their contract until both groups are finally merged as one. It doesn't look like the two groups will be merged until approximately until May 2012. It will take months for DL to be able to get future flying straightened out. Which bases need to be closed, merging groups in bases that exist for both groups. Which bases will be able to handled future flying. Which bases need to be increased in size or decreased in size. And also to get the FAs into bases.
While the PMNW FAs are making a bit more money, both groups are still flying under concessionary wages. Nobody is making the money that we used to make. So far, no one is getting raises, only restoration in bits and pieces.
Both groups are hoping that DL will take some of the good contractual language from the PMNW FA contract and add it to the DL work rules.
Example, PMNW FAs are paid for actual hours flown where as PMDL FAs are paid by averaging flight hours. The PMNW FAs generally make more money though where paid less before the 19th. Holiday pay is more in the contract than in the work rules. Rest rules are more favorable in the contract than in the work rules. Duty day limitations are more favorable in the contract than in the work rules. Extended duty pay is also more favorable in the contract than in the work rules.
It will be interesting to see how it all works out.
Nov 22, 2011, 5:51 pm
#120
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Likely being followed...
Programs: DYKWIA Extraordinaire. TrollSlayer Mega Diamond. [insert esoteric sounding status level(s) here]
Posts: 5,240
The anecdotes always provide a good storyline to understand your reasoning and I, for one, do appreciate.
If things are the same way today, I 1000% understand a reluctance to assist.
Years ago at NW, we (FAs) would always "help out" where needed. Then we had a situation happen. A male FA was "helping out" the company by helping another crew board their plane so it could get out faster. Nice FA. This FA tripped leaving the aircraft and broke his foot. I remember him being wheeled into in-flight service. The FA was NOT covered by insurance because he was NOT scheduled to work that flight. When we (FAs) asked the company about it, their response? "He could have always said no". (To helping out)