The Definitive B/E Upgrade Complaint Thread
May 11, 2010, 7:07 am
#61
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
Programs: DL 1MM Platinum, UA 1k, HH Silver, BonVoy Platinum
Posts: 1,146
Ditto everything from the OP. I too am DM (260,000 MQM YTD), and have 4 more TPAC and 2 TATL this year and will be doing all on *A. Some more reasons are
1. Rollover gives a flyer like me absolutely no incentive to stay with DL.
2. Why stay when any upgrades are such a hassle and rip off.
3. With potential CO/UA merger hopefully there will be a strong competitor that goes after 300K flyers like myself.
4. I have status match to CO plat and will make sure I stay there by traveling on *A this year so I have options next year.
Delta, I prefer your product but in this current situation you are forcing me to spend 20-30K with your opposition. These are the facts.
Great original post, hopefully it will be read by some people that can make a decision.
1. Rollover gives a flyer like me absolutely no incentive to stay with DL.
2. Why stay when any upgrades are such a hassle and rip off.
3. With potential CO/UA merger hopefully there will be a strong competitor that goes after 300K flyers like myself.
4. I have status match to CO plat and will make sure I stay there by traveling on *A this year so I have options next year.
Delta, I prefer your product but in this current situation you are forcing me to spend 20-30K with your opposition. These are the facts.
Great original post, hopefully it will be read by some people that can make a decision.
Just to add: I also have noticed I have SkyPriority in my profile, did all DL Platinum get this? (whatever good it does internationally LOL -- nice post by the OP)
Last edited by Powers106; May 11, 2010 at 7:09 am Reason: Just to add:
May 11, 2010, 7:07 am
#62
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Huntsville, AL
Programs: DL DM 1.929MM, Hilton Lifetime Diamond, IHG Platinum, Avis CHM, Marriott Titanium (lifetime gold)
Posts: 7,860
No, they are a corporation and have made a business decision. You and many others disagree with this business decision. How about you write this up and send it by snail mail to Mssrs. Anderson, Bastian, Hauenstein, and Robertson. Maybe that would garner some attention.
In all honesty, it is none of my business how the seat mate got up front. Is it any of my business at a hotel as to who got the best suite in the hotel? Is it any of my business who drove off the Avis lot in the nice convertible?
I expect to get the promised benefits from a program. Yes, Delta's international upgrade benefits are poor. And General Franco is still dead.
In any case, all airlines have NRSA. Most companies give their employees some benefits. I was a doorman at a movie theatre many years back. I got free popcorn and cokes, and I got free movies all over town even at competing chains. I also got paid minimum wage. :-:
An NRSA is likely to be better behaved than many of the DYKWIA flyers in the world.
And that's a good way to handle your frustrations.
But noting it here pretty much means nothing. Again, if you write all of this up in a letter it might get more attention than a post on FT.
I like the thread where folks are mailing postcards to Mr. Anderson from around the world. I think that's a great idea! ^
David
Let me leave the flyertalk community with this..if you just paid a full fare J ticket for BE on a long-haul which seat mate would would make u feel more slighted by Delta’s system? A kid on a buddy pass that paid a few hundred dollars in taxes? Or a Diamond Medallion who paid $800 for a T-fare and upgraded using one of his SWUs (hypothetically speaking) after flying 125,000 miles domestically?
I expect to get the promised benefits from a program. Yes, Delta's international upgrade benefits are poor. And General Franco is still dead.
In any case, all airlines have NRSA. Most companies give their employees some benefits. I was a doorman at a movie theatre many years back. I got free popcorn and cokes, and I got free movies all over town even at competing chains. I also got paid minimum wage. :-:
An NRSA is likely to be better behaved than many of the DYKWIA flyers in the world.
please note that I’m moving all the remainder of my international travel this year to UA. Delta needs to realize they are a global airline and needs to treat their top tiers in-line with the other major carriers when we choose to fly internationally a couple times a year on leisure.
But noting it here pretty much means nothing. Again, if you write all of this up in a letter it might get more attention than a post on FT.
I like the thread where folks are mailing postcards to Mr. Anderson from around the world. I think that's a great idea! ^
David
May 11, 2010, 7:08 am
#63
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: AZO/DTW
Programs: Marriott Gold, SPG Gold, IHG Platinum, Delta GM, CO GE
Posts: 256
"I agree Delta runs a business and can't sustain in the long run if BE seats are just given away. But where I think Delta differs from the other airlines (i.e. United, Continental, and AA) is they fail to see the separation and difference between Business and Leisure travel. "
Clearly as a DM the OP flies a great deal. The notion that airlines are "giving away" seats, especially as the post suggests others were moved up including (dare I say it) no revs....is just wrong! I take it the OP pays quite a bit of money over a year to make DM/MQM. I am sick and tired of folks thinking we are getting "free seats" even when using "award miles" ---there is not a darn thing free about them. Non revs (except for flight crew as in the flight deck as in people who fly airplanes --for safety reasons) are "free seats" which are a valued and reasonable perk for employees, but first class/BE? No they are not. Paying customers come first, and the OP is, I assume, a big a paying customer.
In my view, the OP was not given the consideration due a very good customer.
Clearly as a DM the OP flies a great deal. The notion that airlines are "giving away" seats, especially as the post suggests others were moved up including (dare I say it) no revs....is just wrong! I take it the OP pays quite a bit of money over a year to make DM/MQM. I am sick and tired of folks thinking we are getting "free seats" even when using "award miles" ---there is not a darn thing free about them. Non revs (except for flight crew as in the flight deck as in people who fly airplanes --for safety reasons) are "free seats" which are a valued and reasonable perk for employees, but first class/BE? No they are not. Paying customers come first, and the OP is, I assume, a big a paying customer.
In my view, the OP was not given the consideration due a very good customer.
May 11, 2010, 7:14 am
#64
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SEA
Programs: UA Silver, BA Gold, DL Gold
Posts: 9,779
Maybe DL has a different experience for M fares starting in Europe. It is clearly documented here that flying to Europe M fares are two or three times higher than lowest fare.
In NW days Y/B fares were the required fares for upgrading. Off season these fares were in the $1100 range. From what I am reading here the fares needed for M fares in off season are in the $2500 range.
In NW days Y/B fares were the required fares for upgrading. Off season these fares were in the $1100 range. From what I am reading here the fares needed for M fares in off season are in the $2500 range.
May 11, 2010, 7:15 am
#65
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Huntsville, AL
Programs: DL DM 1.929MM, Hilton Lifetime Diamond, IHG Platinum, Avis CHM, Marriott Titanium (lifetime gold)
Posts: 7,860
I really don't get the complacency on this board regarding this topic. No offense, but maybe its just b/c I'm a young DM who has 30 years of flying left and an idealist but I gotta think Delta at some point is going to have to be competitive especially after the UA/CO merger.
Have you been on Mars? 
There have been numerous threads on this. Trust me.At some point some of us also find there are priorities in life other than flying and DYKWIA.
And in all likelihood, the OP's employer is paying the freight. Ain't hardly anybody on this forum who is frequently flying overseas on their own nickel. MikeMpls excepted, of course!
David
Last edited by DiverDave; May 11, 2010 at 8:14 am
May 11, 2010, 9:01 am
#67
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
Programs: DL 1MM Platinum, UA 1k, HH Silver, BonVoy Platinum
Posts: 1,146
(I think I read something about that and dismissed it as not possible that it was only that... oh well, it is a cruel, bitter world!)
May 11, 2010, 9:22 am
#68
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SEA
Programs: UA Silver, BA Gold, DL Gold
Posts: 9,779
Clearly as a DM the OP flies a great deal. The notion that airlines are "giving away" seats, especially as the post suggests others were moved up including (dare I say it) no revs....is just wrong! I take it the OP pays quite a bit of money over a year to make DM/MQM. I am sick and tired of folks thinking we are getting "free seats" even when using "award miles" ---there is not a darn thing free about them. Non revs (except for flight crew as in the flight deck as in people who fly airplanes --for safety reasons) are "free seats" which are a valued and reasonable perk for employees, but first class/BE? No they are not. Paying customers come first, and the OP is, I assume, a big a paying customer.
In my view, the OP was not given the consideration due a very good customer.
In my view, the OP was not given the consideration due a very good customer.
As to whether elites deserve upgrades... First off, I think you overestimate how much it costs to become elite. Second, the qualification criteria disproportionately favor low-fare fliers. Third, there is pretty much zero incremental benefit in selling the seat to an elite, as opposed to selling it to Joe Q Public. In other words, I simply don't buy the argument that your average elite relationship is that valuable to the airline. I think people are elite because they fly a lot, not the other way around. DL has many ways to get people to fly them and the FF program is just one of those avenues.
I pay for pretty much 100% of my travel and most of it is long-haul. Indeed, for those that fly long-haul a lot on their own dime, I think the redemption issues are less of a big deal. I mean, I fly maybe 8 to 10 long-haul RTs each year. It isn't that difficult to find 1 or 2 of those trips where I can redeem instead of paying cash. The problem would be if I am trying to find a specific trip where I can redeem instead of paying cash.
Last edited by pbarnette; May 11, 2010 at 9:30 am
May 11, 2010, 9:44 am
#69
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
Programs: DL 1MM Platinum, UA 1k, HH Silver, BonVoy Platinum
Posts: 1,146
First off, I think you overestimate how much it costs to become elite.
I pay for pretty much 100% of my travel and most of it is long-haul. Indeed, for those that fly long-haul a lot on their own dime, I think the redemption issues are less of a big deal. I mean, I fly maybe 8 to 10 long-haul RTs each year. It isn't that difficult to find 1 or 2 of those trips where I can redeem instead of paying cash. The problem would be if I am trying to find a specific trip where I can redeem instead of paying cash.
I pay for pretty much 100% of my travel and most of it is long-haul. Indeed, for those that fly long-haul a lot on their own dime, I think the redemption issues are less of a big deal. I mean, I fly maybe 8 to 10 long-haul RTs each year. It isn't that difficult to find 1 or 2 of those trips where I can redeem instead of paying cash. The problem would be if I am trying to find a specific trip where I can redeem instead of paying cash.
I fly a lot also. International flights, all on my own dime, about 12 r/t long-hauls every year. It is annoying to me that, even if I am not owed anything, that it is so hard just to use the miles to upgrade once in a while. I can get almost 20k MQM from a BKK-PHX route that I can buy for $1,200 sometimes...but a Y/B/M fare is easily $2,400 or more, so only worth it sometimes...not every time...I would love to even have the choice to pay double miles to upgrade! So, I guess I save the miles for the C class award ticket when I can time it so I use it from the USA, not overseas origin, due to the ridiculous fee Delta has! Grrr!
May 11, 2010, 3:05 pm
#70
Join Date: Mar 2008
Programs: Delta DM
Posts: 49
Let me start by saying I have been closely following this board for the last two years and I am current Diamond Medallion already re-qualified through 2012 thanks to rollover miles. SKYMILESINSIDER I have a serious gripe with your Sky Priority marketing blitz. I have no complaints on the domestic side as I have missed upgrades on only a few segments and am very happy with the domestic benefits. However, on the international side Skymiles and Sky Priority is a complete laughing stock. Delta is soo far from being best in class on international travel that it’s a travesty your marketing department can get away with uttering those words.
As a DM who just returned from an LAX-SYD RT in Y both ways and witnessed on both the outbound and return flights that there was excess space in BE after accommodating all paying passengers (cash and skymiles), all NRSA employees and all buddy passes. On the return flight I confirmed with the lead purser that I was the only DM in Y on the flight and there were 2 or 3 PMs. The fact that there is not some instrument available to the top tiers to upgrade in a situation like this is from my vantage point a serious lacking in the Skymiles offering. I would have gladly exchanged 50,000 miles for one of those seats each way. Ohh and even if I had wanted to book an award ticket for the trip of course there was no low level BE awards available even though both cabins were more than half empty.
Apparently Delta fail’s to realize that 3 out of the 4 Majors (soon to be 2 of 3) both realize and value their top tier fliers enough to give them instruments that allow them to upgrade to Biz Class at substantially lower fare levels than Delta a few times a year for their loyalty.
I agree Delta runs a business and can't sustain in the long run if BE seats are just given away. But where I think Delta differs from the other airlines (i.e. United, Continental, and AA) is they fail to see the separation and difference between Business and Leisure travel. They are GREEDY and expect all their Top Tier Fliers to behave and spend as if they are on Business Travel internationally every time they fly. As I have over 1mm Skymiles and in all likelihood another 30 years of active flying, its in my best interest for Delta to right this ship. I will not remain complacent and be satisfied with the status quo that delta calls there useless SWUs and shame on those of you out there that aren’t willing to take more of a stand in order to get Delta to change their course. This hogwash that Delta feeds us about protecting the yield on their BE cabin is just that…when half the cabin is going out empty and being given to NRSA and buddy passes nothing is being protected. If last minute upgrades via miles or cash or usable SWUs were allowed the only net effect would be a few less buddy passes sitting upfront.
Case in point.. those that fly on business internationally and have travel policies that allow for the purchase of J class tickets will continue to do just that. They are not going to risk a gate a upgrade and the chance of riding in Y if they don’t have to b/c they are spending OPM (Other People’s Money). In addition, those high rollers out there to which money flows freely will also not change their purchasing decisions and risk sitting in back. The majority of international flights that Delta is operating today have room to accommodate all types of passengers to maximize yield including full J, Discounted I, Award Tickets, NRSA, buddy passes, and SWU’s on all fares if not just mid and up on a space available basis.
Let me leave the flyertalk community with this..if you just paid a full fare J ticket for BE on a long-haul which seat mate would would make u feel more slighted by Delta’s system? A kid on a buddy pass that paid a few hundred dollars in taxes? Or a Diamond Medallion who paid $800 for a T-fare and upgraded using one of his SWUs (hypothetically speaking) after flying 125,000 miles domestically? Wake up Delta some of us out there would actually like being treated like a DM internationally and be given more options than paying $800 for Y or $3,000 for M and that’s it.
As I’m sure I’ll be flamed for this, please note that I’m moving all the remainder of my international travel this year to UA. Delta needs to realize they are a global airline and needs to treat their top tiers in-line with the other major carriers when we choose to fly internationally a couple times a year on leisure.
-LAXHOUND
As a DM who just returned from an LAX-SYD RT in Y both ways and witnessed on both the outbound and return flights that there was excess space in BE after accommodating all paying passengers (cash and skymiles), all NRSA employees and all buddy passes. On the return flight I confirmed with the lead purser that I was the only DM in Y on the flight and there were 2 or 3 PMs. The fact that there is not some instrument available to the top tiers to upgrade in a situation like this is from my vantage point a serious lacking in the Skymiles offering. I would have gladly exchanged 50,000 miles for one of those seats each way. Ohh and even if I had wanted to book an award ticket for the trip of course there was no low level BE awards available even though both cabins were more than half empty.
Apparently Delta fail’s to realize that 3 out of the 4 Majors (soon to be 2 of 3) both realize and value their top tier fliers enough to give them instruments that allow them to upgrade to Biz Class at substantially lower fare levels than Delta a few times a year for their loyalty.
I agree Delta runs a business and can't sustain in the long run if BE seats are just given away. But where I think Delta differs from the other airlines (i.e. United, Continental, and AA) is they fail to see the separation and difference between Business and Leisure travel. They are GREEDY and expect all their Top Tier Fliers to behave and spend as if they are on Business Travel internationally every time they fly. As I have over 1mm Skymiles and in all likelihood another 30 years of active flying, its in my best interest for Delta to right this ship. I will not remain complacent and be satisfied with the status quo that delta calls there useless SWUs and shame on those of you out there that aren’t willing to take more of a stand in order to get Delta to change their course. This hogwash that Delta feeds us about protecting the yield on their BE cabin is just that…when half the cabin is going out empty and being given to NRSA and buddy passes nothing is being protected. If last minute upgrades via miles or cash or usable SWUs were allowed the only net effect would be a few less buddy passes sitting upfront.
Case in point.. those that fly on business internationally and have travel policies that allow for the purchase of J class tickets will continue to do just that. They are not going to risk a gate a upgrade and the chance of riding in Y if they don’t have to b/c they are spending OPM (Other People’s Money). In addition, those high rollers out there to which money flows freely will also not change their purchasing decisions and risk sitting in back. The majority of international flights that Delta is operating today have room to accommodate all types of passengers to maximize yield including full J, Discounted I, Award Tickets, NRSA, buddy passes, and SWU’s on all fares if not just mid and up on a space available basis.
Let me leave the flyertalk community with this..if you just paid a full fare J ticket for BE on a long-haul which seat mate would would make u feel more slighted by Delta’s system? A kid on a buddy pass that paid a few hundred dollars in taxes? Or a Diamond Medallion who paid $800 for a T-fare and upgraded using one of his SWUs (hypothetically speaking) after flying 125,000 miles domestically? Wake up Delta some of us out there would actually like being treated like a DM internationally and be given more options than paying $800 for Y or $3,000 for M and that’s it.
As I’m sure I’ll be flamed for this, please note that I’m moving all the remainder of my international travel this year to UA. Delta needs to realize they are a global airline and needs to treat their top tiers in-line with the other major carriers when we choose to fly internationally a couple times a year on leisure.
-LAXHOUND
I hope Delta understands we enjoy flying with them but when the competition takes better care of their top elite than Delta regarding this issue, we only what for Delta to improve to truly be the "BEST IN CLASS".
May 11, 2010, 9:43 pm
#71
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: PHX
Programs: Delta DM 2M, AA EP, Marriott AE
Posts: 223
...
As I’m sure I’ll be flamed for this, please note that I’m moving all the remainder of my international travel this year to UA. Delta needs to realize they are a global airline and needs to treat their top tiers in-line with the other major carriers when we choose to fly internationally a couple times a year on leisure.
-LAXHOUND
As I’m sure I’ll be flamed for this, please note that I’m moving all the remainder of my international travel this year to UA. Delta needs to realize they are a global airline and needs to treat their top tiers in-line with the other major carriers when we choose to fly internationally a couple times a year on leisure.
-LAXHOUND
In May I am already DM for 2011 and by the end of the year I may have enough to carry-over a DM status for 2012 ... not sure it is worth it anymore. I could start a parallel 1K status with United/CO or equivalent with American. I will be scratching my head hard on my Thursday flight back to PHX when I requilify for DM ... what is the best strategy?
Fly Safe!
May 11, 2010, 10:27 pm
#72
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 733
Let me leave the flyertalk community with this..if you just paid a full fare J ticket for BE on a long-haul which seat mate would would make u feel more slighted by Delta’s system? A kid on a buddy pass that paid a few hundred dollars in taxes? Or a Diamond Medallion who paid $800 for a T-fare and upgraded using one of his SWUs (hypothetically speaking) after flying 125,000 miles domestically?
In your LAX-SYD rt example, since you offered it, the "kid on a buddy pass" paid far more than "a few hundred dollars in taxes." In fact, there is less than a $100 cost differential between the buddy pass and the actual price of your hypothetical example.
So what does it really matter if you're sitting next to a T-fare passenger or a buddy pass passenger who paid nearly identical fares? The assumption you make is that the buddy pass shouldn't be upgraded because it was only "a few hundred dollars in taxes", which is, in fact, incorrect.
And let's not forget that there is a better than fair chance that the buddy pass won't board the aircraft at all.
May 11, 2010, 11:53 pm
#73
Join Date: Sep 2009
Programs: UA GS>1K>Nothing; DL DM 2MM; AS 75K>Nothing>MVP
Posts: 9,341
In other words, I simply don't buy the argument that your average elite relationship is that valuable to the airline. I think people are elite because they fly a lot, not the other way around. DL has many ways to get people to fly them and the FF program is just one of those avenues.
I pay for pretty much 100% of my travel and most of it is long-haul. Indeed, for those that fly long-haul a lot on their own dime, I think the redemption issues are less of a big deal. I mean, I fly maybe 8 to 10 long-haul RTs each year. It isn't that difficult to find 1 or 2 of those trips where I can redeem instead of paying cash. The problem would be if I am trying to find a specific trip where I can redeem instead of paying cash.
BTW - Don't understand with your flying pattern why you fly DL. Doesn't make any sense!
May 12, 2010, 5:42 am
#74
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SEA
Programs: UA Silver, BA Gold, DL Gold
Posts: 9,779
Again I disagree. I flew 20 legs across the Pacific last year on UA. I got upgrades on 19 of them. My total spend for the trips was under $15k. If I had been flying DL, I would have spent at least $60k to fly C. My travel is on my own nickel and being able to fly business at a reasonable price is a big, big deal for me and a lot of other travelers.
Were the airline's problems loads, rather than yields, then the FF programs as currently constructed might make sense. Since loads aren't the problem... This is why I expect FF benefit belt-tightening to come out of the CO/UA merger, as CO has traditionally tried to make their FF program about yields, at least more than UA.
UA makes no sense, because they don't fly to CPH and always want to put you onto SK to the US, where you can't upgrade, where you often earn very little, and which is also a pretty lousy airline. CO might be an option, but they have lousy upgrade availability ex-CPH, require connecting or arriving in Newark, have AWFUL Y seats, and are almost always more expensive than DL. I've looked at AA, but they almost always require one or more connections than DL does. I've looked at the foreign airlines, too, but none have a FF program worth getting excited about.
May 12, 2010, 12:33 pm
#75
Join Date: Sep 2009
Programs: UA GS>1K>Nothing; DL DM 2MM; AS 75K>Nothing>MVP
Posts: 9,341
Let me get this straight... You flew 10 roundtrips, virtually all in J, at an average of less than $1500 per trip, yet you dispute my claim that the elite relationship simply isn't valuable to the airline? Does not compute. Do people not realize that there is a fundamental disconnect between crowing about how valuable you are to the airline, while complaining about not being able to upgrade on cheapo fares? Not saying you shouldn't use and abuse the airlines for everything they are worth, but let's be honest about the value of such flyers to the airlines. And, please, don't act surprised when DL doesn't bend over backwards to keep you as a customer.
The problem is that when J fares were at a reasonable multiple of Y, then companies set travel policies that allowed employees to fly J. The carriers took advantage of that by jacking the J fares up to $6-$8k. Now the companies are balking. UA is playing the game very smart and are grabbing all of DL's international FFs in droves. Those who don't have an employer who pays for J, fly UA because of the generous UG program. Those who do have an employer who pays for J fly UA because of a better hard product (lie flat seats in J) plus the opportunity to use SWU to UG into F.
DL is stupid. They're worried about a problem than doesn't exist (buydowns from J to Y). Most of their international customers hate them. They're losing heretofore loyal customers in large numbers to UA, AA an CO, and they're never going to get them back.
Actually it makes all the sense in the world. They fly where I need to go and at a very competitive price. Ex-CPH, upgrades are plentiful and not really that expensive (M fares are roughly $1600). And, as someone that flies partners with regularity, I earn substantially more miles with DL than I would with any other carrier (esp. *A).
UA makes no sense, because they don't fly to CPH and always want to put you onto SK to the US, where you can't upgrade, where you often earn very little, and which is also a pretty lousy airline. CO might be an option, but they have lousy upgrade availability ex-CPH, require connecting or arriving in Newark, have AWFUL Y seats, and are almost always more expensive than DL. I've looked at AA, but they almost always require one or more connections than DL does. I've looked at the foreign airlines, too, but none have a FF program worth getting excited about.
UA makes no sense, because they don't fly to CPH and always want to put you onto SK to the US, where you can't upgrade, where you often earn very little, and which is also a pretty lousy airline. CO might be an option, but they have lousy upgrade availability ex-CPH, require connecting or arriving in Newark, have AWFUL Y seats, and are almost always more expensive than DL. I've looked at AA, but they almost always require one or more connections than DL does. I've looked at the foreign airlines, too, but none have a FF program worth getting excited about.
Out of curiosity, what are you spending on average per RT and what percentage of your flights are in J versus Y.